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alethiophile Shadowed Philosopher from Ëa Since: Nov, 2009
Shadowed Philosopher
#1: Jul 10th 2011 at 2:01:35 PM

So I have a Naruto fanfic, and in the latest chapter I wrote some bits that seem like they violate style rules that I have heard repeated (notably, point of view jumping around, and use of a lot of passive voice). What I've always heard is that these rules are not set in stone, but simply really hard to break properly without it sounding stupid. As I read it, it seems like it works, but I'm not exactly an ideal observer, having written it in the first place. Does it work, or does it just sound stupid? The chapter is here, and the bits I'm interested in are from the genin's fight with Zabuza onwards (late in the chapter).

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
MajorTom Eye'm the cutest! Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
#2: Jul 10th 2011 at 2:07:01 PM

Style "rules" as said by style guides are really more suggestion than law. Anything can be done well and sometimes narratively speaking some of their style rules need to be broken such as frequent shifts of POV or passive voice.

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."
alethiophile Shadowed Philosopher from Ëa Since: Nov, 2009
Shadowed Philosopher
#3: Jul 10th 2011 at 2:13:49 PM

Yeah, so I've heard. I've also heard that you need to do it well, or else it just sounds dumb. I like to think that what I've done there is all right, but I really need a second opinion (or a third, or a fourth) before I start taking that for granted.

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
Yej See ALL the stars! from <0,1i> Since: Mar, 2010
See ALL the stars!
#4: Jul 10th 2011 at 2:19:56 PM

Then post here. We'll listen. grin

(Re: rules, to quote the wonderful original Pirates Of The Caribbean: "They're more like guidelines rather than actual rules.")

edited 10th Jul '11 2:20:05 PM by Yej

Da Rules excuse all the inaccuracy in the world. Listen to them, not me.
alethiophile Shadowed Philosopher from Ëa Since: Nov, 2009
Shadowed Philosopher
#5: Jul 10th 2011 at 2:26:48 PM

All right. Here's the bit with perspective shifting.

It was Kakashi all over again. None of the clones had the slightest chance against even a clone of Zabuza. Any of them that entered his reach died, and none landed a single blow upon him. The mob, which had been spread out in a semicircle surrounding the clone, gathered around him, hoping to overwhelm him with force of numbers, but they were unsuccessful. Even the huge number of clones Naruto had summoned began to thin out, throwing themselves against the juggernaut.

One behind him was making seals. Zabuza did not notice. He was supremely aware of any clone that entered his hand-to-hand range, but those beyond did not concern him. They would only die in their turn. Thus, he was startled, if only momentarily inconvenienced, when all the clones around him lunged at once and grabbed his limbs, and more startled at the voice from behind him.

"Katon: goukakyuu no jutsu!"

A fireball engulfed all the clones—the twelve or so of Naruto holding on as well as the one of Zabuza that was the target. Naruto's clones disappeared immediately, leaving puffs of smoke behind. Zabuza's held out for almost a full two seconds in the fire before dissolving into another puddle of water. Sasuke's henge ended as he bent over, panting. Some five of Naruto—all that were left of the original mob of clones—gathered round him.

The original Zabuza, standing still on the surface of the river by Kakashi's prison, raised his eyebrows. "Impressive, brats." He raised his free hand again. "Mizu bunshin no jutsu." Another clone climbed out of the river, standing near the edge. Naruto glanced at Sasuke, releasing his remaining clones.

"That got us absolutely nowhere, didn't it."

"So it seems." Sasuke had recovered a little, and was standing straight. Naruto did not seem to have expended any energy at all.

Zabuza's new clone laughed. "An impressive showing! You caught me by surprise. It won't do you any good, though. You can't keep up attacks of that magnitude for as long as I can keep up making water clones."

Naruto glanced sideways at Sasuke. "Let's find out!" He crossed his fingers again, making another, though smaller, mob of clones. They all charged at Zabuza's water clone nearby. Sasuke was the only one to notice the big shuriken one of them had tossed him as it attacked. He looked it over for a moment, then raised an eyebrow.

The clones had all attacked Zabuza at once. As was more or less predictable, without one throwing heavy jutsus around, they did nothing at all. A single swipe of the big sword dispelled most of them and sent the remainder skidding away, dispersing with muted pops as they went.

Sasuke put the dots together quickly. By this time he had already gotten another shuriken from his pack. He leapt into the air, one of the two unfolded in his hand, the other behind him. "Take this, then!" A shuriken whirled and flew towards Zabuza—straight past the clone, targeting the real one still holding Kakashi prisoner. By the time Sasuke landed, his hands were empty.

Zabuza watched the incoming shuriken without any particular consternation. It was a formidable weapon, spinning at a high rate of speed, closing on him quickly, so fast that his eyes could not track its rotation. But if he moved just so, and grabbed it here... The shuriken stopped dead, abruptly, and Zabuza swung it out to one side to cancel its forward momentum. He grinned at the brats. "Good try, but..." He stopped. Another shuriken had been behind the first. This one was close, too close to grab, and his hand was out of place. It moved towards him as if in slow motion, and, with a sudden, convulsive effort, he leapt—not a leap as any self-respecting ninja would practice, but a desperate yanking of his lower body out of the way. His hand remained in the water prison, maintaining it, as he folded the rest of him up into a tiny space below his head. The shuriken passed straight underneath him, harmless, and he returned to position with a sigh of relief.

"An even better try! I might even acknowledge you as worth fighting. You still have no..." He cut himself off, again, at the sound of a henge behind him. He looked around frantically to see that the shuriken had, in fact, been a loud, annoying, blond brat with a kunai in his hand, who threw it hard at his shoulder with a cry of "Take this!"

Zabuza was faced with a choice. He could remove his hand from the water prison and dodge the kunai, which would leave him unharmed but fighting a pissed-off Sharingan no Kakashi. Or, he could take the shot, which was quite well aimed (Zabuza admitted with grudging respect) at the big, important muscles in his shoulder. The kunai would cripple his arm, and there was no way he would be able to maintain the water prison through that. That option would leave him quite emphatically harmed, and also fighting a pissed-off Sharingan no Kakashi. With one arm.

Zabuza chose the former.

It shifts from Naruto's perspective (which is a little bit ambiguous anyway, when there are a hundred of him), quickly to Sasuke's, then to Zabuza's for the last few paragraphs. I like the effect it gives, but it might be confusing to people who didn't know the original intent. (Sorry it's a bit long.)

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
alethiophile Shadowed Philosopher from Ëa Since: Nov, 2009
Shadowed Philosopher
#6: Jul 10th 2011 at 2:29:25 PM

And then the passive voice:

Sasuke glanced between his teacher and the downed form of Zabuza at the base of the tree in front of him. The power of the Sharingan was...awe-inspiring. Kakashi had the full three-tomoe form, Sasuke had noticed, and his mastery of it—at least, that either had ever shown Sasuke—was at least as great as his father's had been. Of course, it was nothing on Itachi's.

That thought would have thrown him into depression, again, if there had not been important things happening to keep him distracted. Kakashi was threatening Zabuza with death. Routine enough, Sasuke supposed, and he was pissed off enough at Zabuza not to particularly care; he had taken a few hits from that clone when henged into Naruto, and they had hurt.

Zabuza was looking up, frightened. Kakashi was about to put his own sword through his neck. Zabuza was—falling over, apparently dead, of three senbon suddenly protruding from his throat. What?

Kakashi looked up, alert again, to see a shinobi in an odd, porcelain mask standing on a tree branch. Sasuke looked at—him? her? Impossible to tell—as closely as he could, but could not discern anything that was not obvious. I need my Sharingan.

The ninja was jumping down to the ground, approaching Zabuza's body. The ninja was saying something, something about being from Kirigakure and hunting down Zabuza as a traitor. The ninja was picking up Zabuza's body over his? her? shoulder. They're strong. I could probably do that, but it'd be kind of hard. The ninja was walking some distance away. The ninja disappeared, probably with a shunshin.

Kakashi looked around, seemingly caught off balance. Sasuke walked over to him. The dobe had crawled out of the river where he had landed from his henge stunt and walked over as well. Both Kakashi and the dobe were soaking wet, but that was trivial.

Kakashi looked at Sasuke. "Listen. I've overused this Sharingan. I'm going to collapse from chakra exhaustion pretty soon now. Get Tazuna home. Get me there. I'll just need to rest. You're in charge until I wake up." The dobe did not comment. Sasuke would have expected him to complain bitterly about that, but apparently he was too high on his earlier triumph to do so. Well, let him be. It had been impressive.

Kakashi reached up and pulled his hitai-ite down over his Sharingan, concealing it again. Then his visible eye rolled up in his head and he collapsed.

The impression I'm trying to give here is of a kind of mild fugue state; Sasuke is coming down off an insane adrenaline high, and so not really engaged with his surroundings.

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
Jewbacabra Batmanchu from San Francisco, CA Since: Jul, 2011
Batmanchu
#7: Jul 10th 2011 at 7:27:16 PM

First, I like it.

Second, your point of view (from my point of view harhar [lol]) is fine. You have an omniscent third person perspective going on (as opposed to limited third-person). Ultimately, I was not confused.

However, I am curious as to where you think the POV jumps. Could you perhaps embolden or highlight the suspected POV changes?

Third, As far as passive voice goes, you use it judiciously — I don't think it has a negative effect. Then again, a more active voice might liven it up. You won't know until you type it out!

Finally, don't worry about breaking the rules. If you do something atrocious it'll eventually come back to you, you'll take note of it, and you'll be a better writer.

Word.

edited 10th Jul '11 7:27:48 PM by Jewbacabra

Two Wong's don't make a white.
alethiophile Shadowed Philosopher from Ëa Since: Nov, 2009
Shadowed Philosopher
#8: Jul 10th 2011 at 9:44:17 PM

The point of view there is trying to be third-person limited omniscient, but jumping from Naruto to Sasuke to Zabuza. Maybe I should just make it actually third-person omniscient and be done. (That's basically what the anime ends up doing, with their cutting to people's faces and hearing their thoughts, and if there's one thing I like about the Naruto anime it's the fight scenes.)

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
Peter34 Since: Sep, 2012
#9: Jul 11th 2011 at 2:17:13 AM

In the first part of a story (short story, novella, novel, or series of novels) the writer establishes how the point-of-view is going to move - or not move - and the reader has every right to expect not to have surprising POV changes occur 4/5 of the way into the story. Like if you start out writing from one character's point of view, chapter after chapter, and you go on and on, and then very late in the story you begin jumping POV.

The passive voice thing, however, is subjective. As with almost all "rules of writing fiction", the no-no on passive voice is there to protect inexperienced writers who aren't skilled enough to know what they're doing.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#10: Mar 1st 2012 at 9:05:21 AM

[up][up]That was awesomely written. Don't let the man get you down.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
JHM Apparition in the Woods from Niemandswasser Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Hounds of love are hunting
Apparition in the Woods
#11: Mar 1st 2012 at 10:49:30 AM

@alethiophile: While I take issue with the somewhat incongruous use of colloquial language in the narrative itself—it's a pet-peeve of mine I admit, but I'm very all-or-nothing with this stuff—and am, admittedly, not crazy about the subject, your writing is actually quite nice. Your choice of words is pretty good, and I did overall enjoy how you approached perspective there. So that's good. In summation: Aside from some quibbles with consistency, what I'd really like to see from you is original work. You seem like you'd be good with it.

That just turned into a critique paragraph. Yeah. Sorry...

I really am not a great fan of the assumption that conforming to style rules is necessary to successful writing; reading other work and learning intuitively what would or would not work in a given circumstance always struck me as a far better approach.

I'll hide your name inside a word and paint your eyes with false perception.
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