Breaking the Animation Age Ghetto

It's hard to be sarcastic on the Internet, ain't it?

I'll say it again, we don't need to change animation so the majority will accept it; we need to change the majority so they'll accept animation.

After all, the fact that animation for adults exists shows that adults will watch cartoons. All we gotta do now is make it more acceptable to watch cartoons for kids, and then maybe we'll see some change, maybe even a little more variety in what adult animation is like.

edited 23rd Aug '14 2:13:21 PM by Aldo930

"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."

NYC indie animators today: John Dilworth, Richard Williams, Signe Baumane, Mike Carlo, James Sugrue, countless people at Titmouse, there are so many that deserve attention!

That's some deep stuff, man.;)

We need to show them that we believe in our beliefs just as much as they believe in their beliefs.

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And then that'll make it OK for adults to watch kids' shows without being mocked or hated for it?

"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."

To get back to Gargoyles: The first two seasons were really deep, and I remember how surprised I was when what initially looked pretty much like a run-of-the-mill Cartoon suddenly became an epic saga. Naturally it then got dumbed down for the third season.

Sometimes I think that it is less a matter of shows and movies which can be considered more for adults than children existing, and more a matter of people looking at the animation and not considering the actual content. I mean is the common popcorn flick really so much more "mature" than the common animation movie? Or the common TV-Show so much deeper than some of the animated shows?

To me animation is not a genre but an art form which can be used for every genre possible.

Both live-action and animation are on the same level of maturity, in that 99% of it is in some way immature and we're better off embracing it.

Terms like "deep" and "mature" ought to be retired. They're gradually losing their meaning.

edited 26th Aug '14 6:32:43 AM by Aldo930

"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."

I don't know - there are some things in either medium that do find a way to be mature as possible, despite that little bit of silliness sneaking in, otherwise...

Even if I had different face, I AM STILL DISGRACED.

Truly mature works are rarer than unicorns, my friend.

"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."

How are we defining our maturity here?

Personally, I don't even use the word. The term has become so overused it's essentially meaningless.

But what would you define as mature animation? Let's hear from you.

edited 26th Aug '14 5:32:45 PM by Aldo930

"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."

Pop culture references, politics, sex, gore, and excessive cursing. Now that's definitely the definition of mature!

Supports cartoons being cartoony!

I would describe mature animation as something that takes itself and it's audience seriously and allows for complex and well developed characters, stories and the like. Something like Avatar The Last Airbender would be considered mature due to it's amazing characters that are handled perfectly, the heavy themes this show is able to convey such as a realistic portrayal of war which is something the show won a Peabody Award for, the deep physiological themes found from withing the narrative, and all and all not shying away from heavy topics such as death, questionable morality, genocide, emotional trauma,corruption,spirituality,and much more and all and all being one of the best written series period. It treats it's audience with respect and in turn has become something grand and amazing something that doesn't come around very often. You can even say that it is almost if not absolutely perfect.

edited 26th Aug '14 5:56:21 PM by cmarston1

"If you look for the light, you can often find it. But if you look for the dark, that is all you will ever see."

It won a Peabody Award? Really?

Well, that's another award ceremony I can't take seriously anymore.

edited 26th Aug '14 6:05:47 PM by Aldo930

"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."

Aldo, I need to ask, you seem to criticize Avatar a lot. My two questions for you are of how much of the show you've actually seen and what your actual issues with it are. I'm not asking to berate you here, I'm genuinely curious what your reasoning is here.

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I saw the first four episodes in order. I was bored stiff, and kept skipping through to later episodes just to see if it got better. It didn't, and what I've heard of the episodes I missed didn't encourage me to check out more.

My problem is that the work is overrated. Incredibly so. When there is a review of the work here on TV Tropes that says it is "the best show to air on television, ever," how can you not say it's overrated?

We should not be treating this work like it was given to us from God; it's just a cartoon made by two guys, and that's all it is. And it isn't particularly good either.

edited 26th Aug '14 6:21:09 PM by Aldo930

"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."

Eh, to be honest, I think the beginning of the first season drags a lot, and that the show really didn't fully hit its stride until the middle-ish of the second season, so I could understand how you were bored with it there. Where you skipped to that you felt it was more of the same, I dunno. But hey, if it bored you, nothing I could say there. Maybe it's just not your kind of show?

Personally, though, I don't like making judgements of shows that I haven't seen a significant amount of, like at least a season or two, though I prefer reserving judgement until I've finished watching a show all the way through (unless it's a REEEEALLY long running show, one which I couldn't possibly do that in any sort of reasonable timeframe).

edited 26th Aug '14 6:30:35 PM by Odd1

Insert witty 'n clever quip here.

I do enjoy mature stuff, I enjoy fantasy stuff, I enjoy action stuff, I enjoy whatever the hell it's supposed to be. It just wasn't a very good work in whatever the hell it's supposed to be doing.

Then again, the structure of the show is continuous, in that it has a start and an end and everything in the story is meant to lead to the end.

This is actually a pretty bad idea if you're doing this as a TV show - a contained story in one season is a better idea, because if the first season sucks in comparison to later seasons you don't have to watch that to know about stuff that'll pop up later.

(If the show doesn't hit its stride until it's halfway over, then it doesn't help my feelings that it's overrated.)

edited 26th Aug '14 6:31:17 PM by Aldo930

"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."

Keep in mind, I don't think the first season is bad. Just that the middle of the second season is where it's at its peak. Probably could've phrased that better, but whatever.

Maybe it's just not your kind of show? Just because you don't like a show, it doesn't mean it's bad. Hell, I don't like Sponge Bob at all, but my distaste for the show doesn't mean it's a bad show. Or hell, better example, I cannot, for the life of me, get into the Legend Of Zelda games. Yet, they are universally heralded as some of the best games of all time, and I can acknowledge that while still not liking playing them myself.

Also:

The problem here is that this is how most non-episodic shows work, and I don't see most television show creators who make shows like that rushing to change this structure anytime soon.

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I tried to approach the show on its own terms and I didn't find it enjoyable in the least. There's a difference between "it's not my cup of tea" and "I can't see why everybody likes this."

Most non-episodic shows have a clear beginning and a clear end, and everything in the story is meant to lead to that end? Really?

"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."

Well, obviously there's gonna be some filler, but yes, more or less.

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Avatar mostly gets its reputation because western audiences (particularly fans of anime) are starved for serious action cartoons with good character development. I like the show and all but I agree with Aldo that it's pretty overrated (cmarston's description of it, is to me, way too hyperbolic).

"mature" is honestly a pretty difficult term to define and it means different things to different people. I would have to agree with aldo that most stuff is immature in some fashion, even if just a little.

the best western example i can think off the top of my head is Batman The Animated Series, ESPECIALLY Mask of the Phantasm. it doesn't really feel like the people who made it pulled any punches in their storytelling at all. it didn't seem to me that they were writing it *for kids*, it just didn't exclude them.

edited 26th Aug '14 7:47:29 PM by wehrmacht

As I said, when there is a review that says it is the best show to have aired on television, ever, it is overrated.

And that is why I say that "mature" has kind of lost all meaning and we should just retire the term.

edited 26th Aug '14 7:51:28 PM by Aldo930

"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."

But then how else will we describe the biology of people who have completed puberty?

Insert witty 'n clever quip here.

OK, that usage of the term hasn't lost all meaning at least.

"They say I'm old fashioned, and live in the past, but sometimes I think progress progresses too fast."