Pony Fanfiction Thread

Basically Clever, if you want to judge a genre by its worst examples, you have to judge every genre by their worst examples, which would mean that every genre is absolute garbage.

That counter argument gets into the "best is subjective" problem.

Better argument, just because it's an easy trick to do, and a lot of people do it for easy praise, doesn't mean it can't have extra pizzaz and be done very well.

Where did I say anything about the "best"? I was only talking about the worst. If you want to judge a genre, you can't restrict yourself to a small subsection of that genre. You can't even restrict yourself to the examples of that genre that actually exist. You have to use the entire landscape of hypothetical fiction that could be sorted into that genre if it existed. To dismiss an entire genre, you have to prove that it isn't even physicaly possible to write something worth reading within it. "Best" isn't even important. Merely "worth it" is enough. And yes, that's subjective. Intentionally so.

Not really. The average FiMFic reader dismisses things off-handedly all the time. Ideally, they'd look at the whole thing. In practice, not happening.

We all have genres we try to avoid, don't we? So we're no different.

Well, ideally is what I'm talking about. Now, I admit that the effort of finding these gems may not be worth the effort of looking when you know you can find others more easily, but that's different from claiming that such a genre cannot produce such gems at all.

Under the broader definition of genre, I can't think of one that hasn't produced something I enjoy. I have my preferences, sure, but that's not the same thing. Now, for instance, I usually consider my least favourite genre to be horror. But I avoid it because it can be personally unpleasant. I'm not claiming that horror is inherently bad. Just that it tends to appeal to different tastes from my own. I get enough fear IRL. I don't need more. But I've enjoyed quite a few horrors despite my aversion.

Now, under more specific genres, I get that certain premises aren't particularly appeal. But I operate under the assumption that no premise is so bad it is impossible to make good. For example, Billy was discussing the possibility of how to make a good cosplayer in equestria story and I think he was onto something. It requires doing something unusual though.

Pretty much what Sereg is saying, You CAN'T dismiss, or label an entire genre as 'worthless', unless there is some issue, inherent to the very fundamental principal of that genre that would require every, single work in it to have the same flaw which makes them bad. You can dislike a genre due to the not caring for the primary purpose of it, or the tropes it normally uses. No one is saying you can't do that. It's when you go from "I don't really tend to care for X stories" to "X stories are inherently bad, and everything in Genre X is objectively bad" that it becomes BS.

I don't care for Romance stories, I find them far to often relying on miscommunication, contrivances, or just plain idiocy for the sake of drama to work, or be so full of the idea of being 'romantic' they don't have any actual story worth reading unless you just want that aspect of it. And even when done well, need something else to make me actually care about them. Just, not the type of stories I like. But I don't think they are 'bad' and there are some I really do love, like A Delicate Balance.

The issue is when you go from the subjective "I don't care for these types of stories overall" to the objective "All storis in Genre X are worthless" that things become an issue.

I just can find it in me to dislike something, unless that something seems to be pretty actively disliking something itself, unless that thing it's disliking started on disliking first, in which case that's fine by me.

Even if that third thing (I being the first thing in this scenario) was also disliking a thing that disliked a thing, it can be disliked for it because, obviously, it was being to loud about it.

@Sereg: that's my point. I, personally, do not think that any crossover can be "worth it". I do think that there is an inherent flaw in it, for the reasons I stated previously. HiE has similar issues, though I grant it might not be as fundamentally flawed as crossovers are (though it's a very big "might").

With something like fiction, I have trouble thinking in hypotheticals — everything depends on execution, and fiction has an infinite number of ways to handle ideas. Thinking about the best case scenario can only go so far when it comes to art. Until I see a practical example of a crossover done well, I'm hesitant to admit that it can be done.

This may or may not make me a hypocrite, since I am currently writing a crossover.

So you admit there are infinite possibilities, and yet then make a firm statement that counters that first one. Claiming that even with infinite possibilities, something is impossible? As Sereg keeps saying you are judging an entire group, based only on a few examples of that group.. and assuming that every single member of that group has those exact same negative qualities.......

Added, once again, there is a difference between subjective "I do not tend to like these things" and objective "This is all crap" You have yet to, in any fashion, provide a single, objective flaw that is inherent to the genre to support the latter.

Even worse

everything depends on execution,

Is.. the complete and utter antithesis of that position. "Everything depends on execution, except in cases where no execution could ever be good"?

edited 30th Aug '15 2:34:16 PM by Seraphem

Well, I think Meta's given me some food for thought. I'm thinking about that Groucho Marx idea and I do definitely find myself questioning it.

Anyway, this conversation is boring me.

I done did added an epirlog.

This was a weekend for cleaning up literary loose ends. Finally finished On a Cross and Arrow (& On A Whisper Of Wind for good measure) and Sugarfree. Plus Hope and Shadows, Lodestone, most of the sequel to Awakening... varying worthwhileness, but what the hay.

edited 30th Aug '15 4:29:27 PM by YamiVizziniX

Ah, Connor Cogwork. I miss him. His stuff tended to be fun to read.

@Clever: Thing is, worst is every bit as subjective as "best" is.

Well. This didn't turn out how I expected.

So, I mentioned once or twice that I was working on a story for a pony horror anthology. That anthology has finally been published: Six Shadows to Warn You. Each of the stories focuses on a different member of the mane six.

Peacevic, the guy organizing the thing, hoped that it would bring a new audience for the featured authors. I don't think that'll work like he wanted. Because one guy wrote an M-rated story ("You Promised"), so now the entire story is stuck behind the Mature filter—even though the other five stories are T at worst. Oh well.

I'm not entirely sure how much horror came through in my story, "Twilight Sparkle and the Strange Case of Old Res", but I'm pretty happy with the results all the same.

Kuroi's story, "Applejack's Law", is quite good. There's a subtle undercurrent of wrongness—a gnawing dread that feeds perfectly into the ending.

"The Lady and the Lich" made me laugh. "Pinkamena's Journal" is so-so prose, redeemed by a very strong concept. "Simply Sanguine" turns Fluttershy into a surprisingly plausible action hero. The less said about "You Promised", the better.

Well, using collabs and anthologies as a way to promote the authors individually is extremely unreliable. Since the story(ies) are being presented as a single unit, that's how readers will tend to see them.

Branding and marketing the stories as a collection makes the individual authors more nebulous, not more individualistic.

Yes, obviously

But this is all besides the point. My problem is that crossovers have a fundamental flaw in their construction. They violate The Law of Conservation of Detail. They trade audience expectations for narrative design. Because they are inherently flawed, a crossover can never be as good as a story that was designed with one consistent universe.

We can argue about the merits of judging crossovers, about how worthwhile they are, or about how there are "good crossovers". But those weren't what I was getting at. To me, the genre has problems inherent to the nature of crossovers.

edited 31st Aug '15 6:28:12 PM by CleverPun

At least I didn't come into this with any expectations of getting new readers. The writing prompt inspired me, and I thought trying to write something outside my comfort zone would be a good exercise. Anything else is just icing on the cake.

As long as you have a positive attitude, writing is never a waste

—

Added the next chapter of The Unfortunate Case — It's mostly a conversation with Luna and Pinkie. I think it turned out pretty well.

I could end it there and start editing, but I think one more short scene with Pinkie and Celestia would be a good closer to the story.

edited 31st Aug '15 11:34:29 PM by CleverPun

well I'm glad that you've finally realized that this is just your opinion instead of an objective fact.

I've always known that.

Now I've realized I have to spell it out for everyone, since this thread is prone to getting into cyclical arguments and half the people here vehemently disagree with me.

So is any of your story based on the musical adaptation of Jekyll and Hyde in particular?

Based on/inspired by; Chapter 1 is inspired by "Alive", chapter 2 is inspired by "Confrontation". The rest of the story is an original construct, more or less.

Is it bragging too much to note when something you preread for got onto EQD? Especially when there's nothing in the text to actually connect you to it?