Who Cares About Men's Rights?

I see what you're saying, and I dunno if it's fair. We can't just 'blame men', since individually, very very very few of them are actually to blame, and there's a few women making things worse too.

But I don't think women shut just shut up till their issues are solved either, I think we need to sort out women, and get us onto something closer to an equal footing with men, because even with all the problems men have, and I do empathize, I do, I still think sorting out the women's problems is the easiest way to sort out the men's.

I'm not really saying "blame men" for the problems. I'm saying blame anti-feminist MRA'ers for the tone of the debate because by and large they're the most responsible for it.

But yeah, the first thing that has to happen in terms of the very real issues that men have is to take a step away from how our culture privileges and worships certain images of masculinity. And it's generally a feminist goal as well. It's just that all the little micro issues that stem from this, can't and won't be fixed until the macro issue is fixed.

Or, you know, don't conscript anyone, because it's tantamount to slavery.

@Karmakin: Umm, the problem isn't masculinity being dominant, it's men looking for it in a femnized society. Men have to take back some arts of their life.

No. Society isn't masculinized or feminized and it shouldn't be. If guys want to wear eyeliner or not be in the draft, then they have that right. If women want their hair short or to not be a mother, then they should be allowed freely. How is "no gender is a hivemind" difficult to get?

edited 23rd Jun '11 10:00:39 AM by emeriin

stop making groups out of an individual thing o_o "Gender Roles" are social constructs, not "Natural Laws"

Seriously, why is this difficult to understand.

Ah right, ok. I agree with that actually.

Was that to me? Because I was just giving a couple of examples that are seen as being too feminized or too masculinized by the stricter people. Sorry if I did something bad.

"I still think sorting out the women's problems is the easiest way to sort out the men's." - Mumble Miss Mumble

And yet, for all the progress made on women's issues, many double standards against men still remain relatively prominent. (Put aside the draft and consider the homelessness issue mentioned at the top of Men Are the Expendable Gender; and then there are the obvious double standards in the context of domestic abuse.) That kind of begs the question as to how effective your approach would be.

It all depends on which double standards one considers worse, of course, and that is subjective anyway if only for depending on priorities. Still though, saying sorting out women's problems will help sort out men's doesn't seem very meaningful when it hasn't been working wonders so far.

As for blaming MRA due to their tone or whatever, that is just a cheap cop-out. If they are right, they are right regardless of tone. If they are wrong, they are wrong regardless of tone. Whether they are right or wrong is what is most relevant here and in turn what should be focused on. Those who do otherwise are just as at fault, if not more.

edited 23rd Jun '11 2:20:46 PM by neoYTPism

Emeriin, It wasn't meant to be, per se, but I agree now that it kind of looks like I was. I just mean the "men should/women should" thing I just think it's kind of strange to just lump people together due to biological sex (and perhaps gender) and assume they have the same goals.

Some women were perfectly happy in the 50s, most weren't. Just blanket statementing something to death doesn't seem logical.

We're not blaming them due to their tone, we're blaming them because although they've identified a real problem their methods for fixing it are not only ludicrously sexist but just plain wouldn't work.

For what it's worth I'm pretty strictly against blaming people based on tone. It's not about tone.

It's more about a general philosophy of tearing things down instead of building things up. A good example of this, I think, is child support. I personally agree that it's often far too tough on the non-custodial parent however, the solution isn't just to tear it down or whatever, the solution is to ensure access to child care, good wages, other social supports, etc. But my experience is that these things are non-starters for the MRA community who tend to be on the right-wing side of things.

Just to chime in on the "tone" thing, it's not that MRAs' tone makes them wrong, it's that their tone reveals a lot about their attitude toward social inequities. Between the guy saying "I love my kids, but I've been out of work for six months and literally can't afford the support payments" and the guy saying "WHY THE FUCK SHOULD I HAVE TO GIVE MONEY I DON'T FUCKING HAVE TO THAT FUCKING BITCH", which one do you think is going to offer any useful solutions to the often hamfisted way family law adjudicates child support?

I only have a few minutes to reply, so I'll have to make this fast, but of course there's been progress in men's rights because of the progress made for women's. Take the fact that women now have other options besides just raising a family. In the past, the man would never have raised a family. It was his job to earn the money, and her job to take care of the kids. Now, because women argued about only having this one role, it's become more acceptable for men to raise the kids, and to be a 'stay at home dad'. The roles can be switched, which benefits both mothers and fathers.

Also, in terms of the domestic abuse thing, in the past, it was completely acceptable to beat your wife and all that. It was sometimes even encouraged. Domestic violence against men just didn't happen, it didn't exist as far as people were concerned. So that's bad for both groups. But now, it's a terrible thing to beat your wife or girlfriend, and it's suddenly acknowledged that yes, men can be victims of domestic violence too. How people looked at male on female violence and female and male violence was different to start off with, you can't expect it to suddenly be the same now. That'll take a bit of time, but it will happen. So yes, men have made progress in that regard too.

The reason women have made more progress is simple really, we were much less equal to begin with. So I disagree with what you're saying, sorting out women's rights is helping to sort out men's too.

Ways increasing women's rights has helped men, in time order:

• Because women are no longer considered to be part of their husbands, men are no longer charged with crimes that their wives committed.
  • Men are also now able to enter into legal agreements with their wives,
  • and are also no longer expected to take sole care of the children in the event of a divorce.
• Because women can keep their last names, it is no longer the sole responsibility of men to "pass on the family name".
• Because women can vote, all politicians have since had more legitimacy.
  • Because women can vote, some policies that benefit men have passed that would not have otherwise.
• Because women can run for office, men have been able to choose to vote for politicians they could not have otherwise voted for.
  • Some men also are represented by politicians better than any politician they could have voted for otherwise.
• Because women are now seen as perfectly competent drivers, men have to do significantly less driving in their families.
• Because women can get reasonably well paying jobs, men do not have to spend as much effort working to get money for their families.
  • For the same reason, if a man is fired he now has a much greater period of time before he must get a job again.
  • For the same reason, some men have better doctors/lawyers/accountants then they would otherwise.
• Because women have access to a wide variety of female contraceptives, a lot of men are not stuck with babies they don't want.
  • Because women can get an abortion, a lot of men are not stuck with babies they don't want.
• Because of the attention given to rape against women, it is beginning to become acknowledged that men can be raped and that this is bad.
• Because of the attention given to domestic violence against women, it is beginning to become acknowledged that men can be attacked and that this is also bad.

As I said in a previous thread , people saying that fighting for women's rights also helps men just sounds like an excuse to not care.

edited 26th Jun '11 11:53:07 AM by Mysteria

@eneziim: This isn't about fashion or anything like that. Western society has been feminized by changing what talents are encouraged and needed to suceed, but at the same time we still expect some sort of masculinity in men raised majorily raised by women. That is why men are having the majority of pyschological problems these days.

edited 26th Jun '11 11:52:18 AM by Erock

If your talking about feminine traits generally being percieved as superior towards masculine traits then really, whilst it does bother me and I have whined about it occasionally, [i]it isn't[/i] as widespread as the exact opposite, you also seem to be forgetting how damaging feminity can be to girls.

edited 26th Jun '11 11:59:40 AM by Mysteria

Can you give some examples of what has changed in that regard? Because it seems to me that traits coded as masculine are still prized above those coded as feminine—it's better to be a "jerk" than "wimpy," it's more important to be "decisive" than "sensitive," etc.

edited 26th Jun '11 11:59:35 AM by Karalora

That's part of my point. We can't really define being a man anymore, so we look down at anything we consider feminine. A book I read (The Vertigo Years by Phillip Blom) made a very clever argument that anti-semitism and many other social problems ae due to this phenomenon.

See my point above.

edited 26th Jun '11 12:02:55 PM by Erock

But who cares about the definition? Men and women should be allowed to do whatever they want and not be degraded for it.

edited 26th Jun '11 12:03:31 PM by emeriin

That is not my point, and nor is that my problem.

You said that your problem was that we can't define 'man' anymore. And 'seeing your point above' doesn't effect my response, I stand by what I said before.

edited 26th Jun '11 12:11:45 PM by Mysteria

What exactly do you mean by "feminity can hurt women"? I've honetly never heard an argument like that, so I'm intrigued.

But this isn't a black and white situation. I made a mistake: society is not feminized, it is sterilized. And humans, especially men, aren't ready for that.

edited 26th Jun '11 12:12:07 PM by Erock

Feminity harms women when they are 'indoctrinated' into it, or else have an overly feminine personality -wich is disfunctional.

The media that women and girls are expected to associate with contribute to unhealthy overdose of feminity for them, it is indoctrinating them,not encouraging them to develope their personality naturally, but encouraging them to develop one way and only one way, towards an excessive form of femininity that's too exaggerated to be natural.

BTW, what did you mean by society is sterilized?

edited 26th Jun '11 1:16:04 PM by Mysteria