The "Overman"

I have not read Nietzche. I think that this should be a pertinent disclaimar for any future feck ups I make in reffering to his philosophy. I fully intend to read his works once I can scrounge the money/library time to do so.

With that disclaimer out of the way I just wanted to ask one simple question. What if the Overman idea (the one that you define your own set of values and then seek to live by them irregardless of the rest of society whilst bringing others around to your way of thinking) is true BUT the person involved instead decides to take up no major beef with his or her society and instead simply wishes to see it altered.

They have the same power, conviction and push as the Overman in Nietzche but happen to (after careful thinking and decision making) want things to remain as they are but with improovements.

Sorry to bother everyone.

KING KING KING GAINAAAAH

Sorry, had to.

I wouldn't call that an Overman (which sounds like a dick) and more of just someone with alot of drive.

edited 10th Jun '11 2:57:01 PM by Thorn14

Really, I think that would be an Overman. There are many possible direction an Overman could seek to take society in, improvement-without-too-drastic-change being one of those.

Head start: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/search.html/?default_prefix=author_id&sort_order=downloads&query=779

Mostly in German, but a couple of things there in English - assuming that's what you need. As far as I'm aware everything on Project Gutenberg can be relied upon to be legit.

(I haven't read any either and thus have no answer to the actual question.)

The Übermensch does not have to be an exact opposite of the society, especially if he is also The Fettered. So, basically, it will still be The Übermensch, but different from the most common interpretation

Interesting question. They sound like a common individual to be honest.

My only nit pick. Change irregardless to regardless.

The problem is that (from my reading) Nietzche appears to think that there is no such thing as an "ubermensch" who would decide to exist in society, even after thinking about it.

Not necessarily. The Übermensch is often interpreted as a Reconstruction of humanism and a paragon of idealism. In that interpretation, he may live in the society and change it with his charisma and willpower to reflect his ideals

The Ubermensch must be in a constant state of "overcoming," e.i., rising above the masses in an attempt to construct a set of self-empowering values, so I'm not sure they could ever be content with the surrounding culture. The Nietzschean Will is a vitalistic phenomenon, so it must be actively imposed and antagonistic towards the surrounding culture in order to be truly free.

That's why Nietzsche was sure that no Ubermensch had been born before him, and that it was unlikely one would emerge after him. He though the Ubermensch's antithesis, the listless, self-satisfied, smug-drunk Last Man would triumph.

Then again, Nietzsche wrote in archetypes, riddles, and poetic logic, so take this all with a grain of salt.

What your probably looking for is existentialism.

Basically, it's about everyone making their own meaning for their lives, without the Overman connotations of someone who makes it for you cause you suck and need their help.

Or in other words, climb a tree, cause the future is an adventure!

edited 10th Jun '11 5:33:50 PM by Ekuran

My interprention is that the Ubermensch would not be human.
Something without bias, able to completely stand alone, be completely independant, and do what they want.
Even the loniest and most antisocial recluse is still biased, feels a large lust for social interaction, will still be swayed by anything that comes by, and is willing to compremise even if it is one of those compromises where the recluse gets hurt from it. All these are human values, and hence human problems. A non-human would not suffer them.

Why are you talking about me so much?

: I guess you are a antisocial recluse then. Join the club! Lets get to genetic engineering and unethical experiments to create the Ubermensch!

I rather like the mentality of the overman. deciding for yourself what is important to you, and disregarding what the crowd says is alot like that Be Yourself stuff they teach in school. and trying to sway other's to your own line of thinking is nothing more than trying to make the world more comfortable.

Imagine if everyone was an overman, having their own set of ideals, whilist trying to sway other's to their line of thought? it'd be like capitalism with ideals.

I think the major problem with the philosophy though is that it's short sighted. It'd be an incredibly hard sell for even an ubermench to sway other's to your own line of thinking while simultaneously disregarding their own opinions. I could point you to various political examples but that's something else entirely.

I think that's another thing with it is, I don't think the ubermench is supposed to be a "perfect human", completely capable of controlling their emotions. (now, ive said I think alot now, so I realize I'm being rather weasily and opinionated, but hear me out) they are after all, trying to make the world see their own point of view. perhaps they are hoping that if they can acheive their own goal, they won't be so alone in their views?

edited 11th Jun '11 6:10:05 AM by Dynamod

: A succesor does not imply perfection, merely that it is a succesor. So language fallancy?

"Something without bias"

Go read Beyond Good and Evil : Nietzsche explicitly argues against the notion of "objectivity" there.

As for your other points, there are folks are there who are much less reliant/susceptible to social interaction, compromise and cultural influence.

edited 11th Jun '11 6:28:50 AM by MRDA1981

perhaps poor word choice on my part, but even as you said yourself, no one can act completely independant of society. so yes, what I was saying is that the ubermensch isn't perfect in the same sense that he isnt non-human, merely aspiring to be perfect/nonhuman. they would seek to be over humanity. doesn't mean they ever would. Xd

I took a dedicated class on Nietzsche in college, but it's been a few years so my memory may be a little hazy. That and Nietzsche was so incredibly dense and occasionally contradictory that it's difficult to puzzle out exactly what he meant.

But my undertanding of his Ubermensch was an individual who had transcended the base "slave morality" of the rest of society and was able to stand on his own, unfettered by what others would impose upon him. It's more of an ideal, rather than a particular individual. I don't think Nietzsche believed that some day a person could come along and correctly say, "I am The Overman".

Nietzsche did have many unkind things to say about his fellow Germans, one of which was their seeming desire to follow in lockstep with whoever was in charge. This was an example of slave morality. People do what they're told because that's what they're told to do. Nietzsche viewed that as a bad thing that could only lead to disaster.

It's incredibly ironic that the Nazis tried to appropriate Nietzche's ideal of the Ubermensch because Nietzsche's ideal was effectively the opposite of what the Nazis stood for. They stood for obedience, conformity, dogmatism and denial of the value of life. Nietzsche's Ubermench stood for radical freedom and the affirmation of life. But because Nietzsche's sister was a foaming anti-Semite and opportunist, they took his ideas bleeding and kicking out of context and warped them into something totally other.

So in short, to understand the Ubermench, look at the Nazis and then imagine their complete opposites. That should give you some idea.