The purpose of the Criminal Justice System

edited 25th Nov '12 11:16:32 PM by JosefBugman

Once again, I refuse to accept a system that considers giving criminals more rights than victims anywhere near a good idea.

Fuck, we treat them better than we treat our poor! What the hell is wrong with this system? If anything, they can be "rehabilitated" by getting a Restraining Bolt, and we can ship them off to Afghanistan and Iraq. Who needs a draft?

I am now known as Flyboy.

Those solutions are... pretty vague, USAF. All you're saying is 'Make everything better/faster/more efficient/more accurate.' Dur. If it were that easy, we would have bloody done it already.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.

edited 25th Nov '12 11:16:51 PM by JosefBugman

No, because most people don't want to spend a dime on prisoners, and with good (if ill-thought-out) reason. It's not about figuring out how to do it, it's about selling it to the people.

If you take away another person's life, yes. Why should you have the chance that person never got?

I am now known as Flyboy.

IMO, the reason that the death penalty isn't at it's best right now is because we don't want it to work, if we could just let go of that desire, we could make it work not just fiscally, or practically, but more intelligently.

If we could just refine it, we could rework the entire system!

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edited 25th Nov '12 11:17:16 PM by JosefBugman

There is a lot of Black and White Morality going on here. While I agree that murder is pretty much one of the worst things a human being can do, up there with torture and rape, two murders aren't equal. You can't treat someone who battered their girlfriend to death because she flirted with another guy the same way as you treat a victim of sexual abuse who poisoned their abuser and the same way you treat a serial killer who dismembers prostitutes. Things need to be looked at on individual levels.

And enough already with 'murderers aren't human'. Yes. They are. You don't get to shove people who commit crimes away and say "I have nothing in common with them, they're not even people". They are people, and that doesn't make their crimes any better or any worse, but it means you have practically everything in common with them. Deal with it; people can be evil sometimes.

edited 9th Aug '11 4:58:57 PM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...

QFT.

There are enough people who would rather request that they be hanged instead of the person who murdered their family than see society carry out barbarity on a fallen member to make the argument about "satisfying the victims / their families" moot.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

I find that really hard to believe in. Even if it's true, maybe it's better to get them out of the gene pool.

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

edited 25th Nov '12 11:17:37 PM by JosefBugman

I don't believe that anyone is that good to truly do it. People may claim that they would do it, but how many would actually go through with it? People who claim such things terrify me, because I'm 100% sure that they're not what they claim to be. If someone is actually serious on that... well, enjoy your pointless execution, bro, you shall be missed.

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

I only wish I had the courage to do such a thing.

I do not feel that I do. I would try to fight for the person's life though. So I hope. I would not like myself much if I did not.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

edited 25th Nov '12 11:18:05 PM by JosefBugman

One example that springs to mind - though I can't recall the name of the victim, so it might take some time to Google up the story - happened in Poland during WWII.

A Polish woman was gang-raped by a group of Soviet soldiers. One of the soldiers who witnessed the crime reported it to an officer, who immediately sent for the woman and had the men lined up. He then told the woman that each of the rapists would be executed on the spot, and that all she had to do was point out the guys who did it. She refused to identify a single one of them.

OK, so she didn't offer her own life, but this story still goes against what some people seem to think victims of extreme crime are "supposed" to feel.

This isn't an isolated case, either; instead, people showing mercy to criminals who hurt them are very common. There is no evidence of a universal trend that victims want revenge. Cases where the victim does want to punish the criminal are probably common - they might be very common - but it's not universal.

edited 9th Aug '11 4:59:34 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

A great many family members of people who've been murdered are very forgiving. There is a charity here that arranges for criminals in jail to meet up with victims and the family of victims - not the same case, but you might have someone in jail for assualt meeting up with the family of someone who was killed in a brawl, or a burglar meeting up with someone who was a hostage in a bank robbery, or what have you. All of the victims volunteer for this.

Be not afraid...

I can imagine why and how would somebody act like that, and can even imagine myself possibly doing something similar, but sacrificing your own life for the sake of someone who killed your family? Pfft.

edited 9th Aug '11 5:03:38 PM by MilosStefanovic

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

But you wouldn't be sacrificing your life for them. You would be sacrificing it for your cause, for the idea that capital punishment is unacceptable under all circumstances and you're willing to die for that ideal.

I would not do such a thing, but I would have great respect for someone who would do so.

Be not afraid...

That depends. I would personally do it for both the cause and the person.

If I would do it. Which again I highly doubt. I have more faith in my ability to fight tooth and claw for their life though.

edited 9th Aug '11 5:08:39 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

I can accept that motivation. I still think that it's a dumb thing to do, but I can at least understand it.

edited 9th Aug '11 5:08:42 PM by MilosStefanovic

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

In theory, if I was offered the chance to die in the murderer's stead, I would do it. I wouldn't do jail time for them, though; in jail, attempts will be made to rehabilitate them, which means that there's a point to sending them there.

I say "in theory" because I'm not sure if I would actually do it. There's no way to know for sure if I would have the courage and decency to do it if this scenario happened, but I would do it if my reason and character wouldn't falter. Of course, it's even more theoretical because no one is ever gonna offer anyone to be executed instead of the murderer of their family.

If you wanna know why I'd do it, it's because it would be an unprecedented chance to demonstrate against the death penalty. Not using that chance would mean that my relatives really did die in vain, and so would the criminal. Another reason to do it would be to save someone from an inhumane punishment.

Good man. People who are as immersed in a conversation as we've been here seldom realise how much of a tangent the discussion is. I, for one, completely failed to notice it this time. Kudos for saving the thread.

edited 9th Aug '11 5:33:15 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

Well, as much as I disagree with your views, I can't fail to respect the level of idealism you guys hold. Sometimes it makes me feel like a complete bastard... but we have already derailed the thread enough. Let's go back on topic.

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

I don't think so. I don't see how I could possibly be on the idealistic end, but I'm not on your side*

^{although technically, execution appeals to me, it's because I see death as more humane than life in prison, not because I share any of the attitudes expressed by the average death penalty advocate}

. I'm a cynic who doesn't draw a line between murderers and the rest of us or call the monsters, as if they're some sort of different species. Calling somebody a monster is just an emotional reaction. Yes, most people probably would be overcome with rage at someone murdering their family in front of them. What that shows is that most people have limits to their control over their emotions. Most people can be pushed to murder under the right circumstances. The only difference in my mind between the average murderer and most people is that most people haven't found themselves in the right circumstances yet. Your family getting murdered in front of you is an obvious one, but you can never be sure how many other "right circumstances" are out there.

People are irrational and arrogant. The severity of a sentence only matters if you get caught, and at the time someone commits a crime, they typically don't think they'll get caught. And people who actually are psychologically abnormal are even less susceptible to deterrence. A sociopath will be even more confident they'll get away with it, and that's if they even think at all before they act.

So there you go, I'm a cynic, but I don't buy the deterrence angle, and I think the moralistic angle (i.e. death row cases are "monsters" who don't "deserve" to live, and must be punished in order for "justice" to be served) is just a fancy way of saying "I want people who make me angry to suffer". And the desire for revenge, much like greed, jealousy, and other motives for murder, is unhealthy and destructive and needs to be suppressed and discouraged, not pandered to.

edited 9th Aug '11 6:17:28 PM by Tongpu

I can't be the only one to see the logical and moral inconsistency in wanting to punish slaughter with death.

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

Logical? Perhaps. Moral? Prove it.

I am now known as Flyboy.