Parenting

Matues: Though I agree the rule is arbitrary I believe he would allow his child to engage in this behavior if they are old enough to make their own choices.

@Silasw: I will agree with that though. This rule could be damaging.

METAL GEAR!?

I'm glad someone asked, so I can finally answer this. I know this came up with Polar and her family before; "since I'm against homosexuality why do I try to pretend I support same-sex parents or the like", was the charge that was levelled.

First of all, no matter what I do I won't be a perfect father. I'm going to get things wrong. My kid will suffer for those mistakes. I've considered not having children specifically to avoid that possibility, but I've decided I have much that can benefit a child; I've suffered so that they won't; I know things I can share with them and they won't have to learn it the way I did. But no matter how well meaning, there will be mistakes.

So therefore, it is not my place to rail against how another parent raises their child, or what they teach them. I don't believe gender or sex or these boxes you check or uncheck, but Gabrael has much a right to tell her son that as I have to teach my son a man was killed, but mysteriously returned to life for his sins.

And I want to address your point about someone can't be a homosexual and a successful adult. That is not true. Many tropers here prove that. And there are many Christians who are abject disgraces to humanity and Christendom. So there's that. In Gabrael's case, I read enough of her posts to absolutely envy her son and her devotion to her family. If her teaching is wrong, there's so much wisdom and intelligence she does impart to her boy that I don't fear at all for his prospects. He'll probably be much like the son I hope to raise.

The bottom line, a parent's job is to prepare a viable citizen who will advance the cause of humanity. Gabrael is doing that. I have zero quarrel with her on that point.

EDIT: I didn't mean to confuse anyone. My child is attending church with me and my wife. Up to a certain age, I'm not sure when yet. Then, they don't have to go if they don't wish to.

edited 4th Apr '13 8:56:18 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

I don't believe this and I made it pretty clear I don't think you do. But you may still want to edit your post, because we've seen on this forum how easily your positions get misinterpreted. The only thing that stopped me misinterpreting what you said was the fact that I actually read your posts and thus know when something is out of character and can be dismissed as "somethings just gone wrong with the communication".

Freedom of (sexual) choice is gone, freedom of religion is gone. Is your kid gona be able to chose anything? Will they get anything that you find on most modern bills of rights, or do children not get that protection because they are young?

edited 4th Apr '13 9:05:45 PM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

Yes Silasw, he can't choose to date boys, and he has to attend Church with me. Clearly I'm gonna keep the kid in a steel box and let him out for meals.

Note

edited 4th Apr '13 9:18:31 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

Really Starship, I thought that by now you knew me well enough to realise that I know that my last post was hyperbolic and exaggerating. But I'd like to know how much it's an exaggeration. You are denying your child certain rights that are laid out in many constitutions and bills of rights, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask what others basic rights you would deny them and why. There are good reasons to deny children some basic rights that we give to adults, but they are few and far between, and much fewer and farther between then either you or most governments think.

Edit: I'm looking at the Wikipedia page on human rights. I'm not stupid enough to think you would deny your kid the right to life, the right to freedom from torture, the right to water or the right to freedom from slavery. But as you've said you would deny them the right to freedom of religion and the right to freedom of sexual identity, I do want to know what other human rights they get and which ones they don't. Right to the internet? Right to free speech? Right to fair trial (not actual trial but fair judgment from you carried out in an appropriate manner)? Reproductive rights?

What human rights would your kids get and what rights wouldn't they get?

edited 4th Apr '13 9:29:14 PM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

Of course.

That's what I was saying.

One of the tiny perks of being gay is that I am almost certainly never going to have a child unless I decide to adopt*

. Because of this, any child I parent is going to be one I've decided I am ready to raise and care for.

Because this is a very serious thing for me.

It is a chance to make someone a happy, stable person who is ready to take on the world.

The thought of screwing up fills me with unfathomable terror. Since that means I have ruined someone I love for life, leaving marks on them that might never fade.

That is why I will probably never decide to be a parent.

I would want any kid I have to be able to be themselves, rather than who I want them to be.

This means explaining the consequences to things and offering advise, rather than simply forbidding it without any possibility for compromise.

"Shoplifting is wrong because it can put the people in the shop out of business. If that happens, all the people the store employs and the owners of the store will be broke, and may not be able to pay for things they really need, like food or medical attention. It also gets you in big trouble with the law, and a criminal record might haunt you for the rest of your life."

If my child wants to be a Christian, then I'm sure as hell not saying "No, because I disagree with it."

I will take them to whatever church they want to go to, sit with them if they want me to or are to young to be left alone, and participate in any events they want to participate in.

Even if I have to endure things I don't agree with.

If it's important to them, it's important to me.

This is why your position annoys me Maxima.

You stated you wouldn't so much as take your child to a mosque if they wanted to be Muslim.

I can't imagine deliberately cutting yourself out of that much of your child's life.

It's easy to say what you hope to do as a parent, but when that kid actually gets there? Haha! Good luck! You can probably achieve only 60-70% of all you would like because kids are their own people and you cannot parent in a vacuum. You will have interference from places you didn't know existed. Especially when they get these horrid little mind trolls called "friends" who like to reprogram all that conditioning you have fought so hard to install. And damn you Java Update! This system keeps corrupting my files!

Even if I had the perfectly controlled environment and a completely supportive family around me, my son is still my son. And there are things that we just don't see eye to eye on. Sometimes it's okay to agree to disagree and while I don't understand his love of math I support him. But sometimes like him wanting to watxht movies all the time I have to just say no.

It is how you say no that is important. At least try to explain yourself to your kid. Again, building communication...I keep the rules simple:

1) Obey first, question after. 2) Any form of terrorism will be nuked instantly. 3) Mommy doesn't make all the rules. And she has to obey them too. 4) Your thoughts and feelings are important. Communicate them with respect. 5) In Mommy's presence we follow Mommy's rules. Location and people in it be damned.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

I suppose this is addressed to me.

I know I have a lot to learn and a great deal more growing before I could even begin to contemplate becoming a parent.

Those look like good rules to me. With 1) you obviously have to actually give (proper) answers for it to work but everything you've posted indicates you do.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

It was to the thread in general. No worries!

I say after because I may not always have time to explain the why. Sometimes you just need to shut up and do what you are told. These are mainly safety issues, we are in a hurry, or we are in a social environment where we can't move to a private place and discuss it.

I consider myself a benelovent dictator. I will try to involve him as much as possible, but I am still the authority.

I remember he was fighting with me over something and we didn't have time to pull the while discussion out. I just grabbed his chin, got in his face, and asked if he trusted me. He answered yes. I just said for him to shut his mouth, stop the nonsense, and do what he had been told twice already.

That night at bed we talked about it. But he knows I will never do anything to hurt him and everything I do has a good reason.

edited 4th Apr '13 10:28:01 PM by Gabrael

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

I'm not sure if I'm interpreting this correctly, but to be honest, the child should be allowed to go to a mosque without bringing the parent along. If the child can't be forced to the parent's religion, same goes for the parent. If the child is given the right to choose one's faith, then it's his or her responsibility as an individual.

And that's what makes it work. Most people (defiantly most kids) will not accept doing stuff that they don't understand/like without an acceptable reason. But if your kids knows you will follow though, then "Trust me and do it, I will explain later" is an acceptable reason. But only if your kid trusts you.

Edit: From what I got it's not that Starship wouldn't go with the kid as much as he would prevent the kid going under their own steam and refuse to take them himself.

edited 4th Apr '13 10:36:02 PM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

it never ceases to amaze me how many people think their children just automatically trust them just because they are in charge.

Nope. Doesn't work that way.

Educating them about why and how you make your decisions, involving their opinions as possible, apologizing when you fuck up, holding yourself to the same rules they have to follow within reason, all this builds trust with your kid.

Most people don't know how to actively listen to their kids either.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

When Starship said "but if they become Muslim, so be it," I figured that they would be practicing Muslims.

But I think we should look at this from bottom-up. Parents are like teachers; they have a certain level of knowledge and maturity above their children. And they have a certain level of authority over their children, in order to fulfill their responsibility.

They're going to make certain decisions on behalf of their kids to protect them and to steer them in the right direction.

And the beliefs of the parents inevitably influence that process.

I think we agree on that much, and it looks like Starship is trying to express that sentiment in his way.

edited 4th Apr '13 10:41:00 PM by Trivialis

Yeah but I think that only applies once they have reached a certain age. Like he also said his kid will have to attend church with him and his wife. I agree that Starship has good intentions, but he's effectively denying someone basic human rights just because of age. The idea of human rights is that they are universal, you don't get to deny them to someone just because you have power over them, or because they are young. He's getting dangerously close to denying his kid "the pursuit of happiness" for many years just because he doesn't approve of their choice.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

Perhaps. But we give parental authority to impose conditions on basic rights, too. Freedom of movement is a right, but we have curfews on children. Likewise for freedom of speech and media, but censors on those and teaching proper manner of discourse are widely accepted.

I understand that.

I'm not saying a parent should have to attend religious services. I would, probably personally, but I'm a huge pushover.

It's simply that the way Maxima phrased it seemed to indicate that he would not even bother taking his child to a mosque, insuring they would be in good care, then leaving to return later.

Which is a chilly sort of acceptance of religious differences.

Yes. Yes I am. And I feel I am justified in doing that. Now Silasw I don't need to reiterate the high regard I hold you in, but your ideas on human rights illustrates a problem I have not just with parenting, but with the progressive/liberal mindset overall.

This view of rights as something you have for merely existing...I believe this is one of the reasons we live in such a Crapsack World now. Rights are a two-way street, something many people forget. You DO NOT have rights because you simply exist. You have rights because you exist and because you have certain duties and obligations to your family, your community, the State, and humanity.

The hierarchal systems which bestow added privilege in proportion to added responsibility seem to be the best. No matter how brilliant, a newly graduated Ensign is not going to have the same authority, or responsibility as a seasoned Commander. In society, we see that when we simply bestow wealth and prestige and power on people before they're ready, we get tragedies like Michael Jackson.

I think the method of children in their parents care until reaching a certain age makes obvious sense. A child cannot know the intricacies of how the world works, how people work, and even how they work. I'm a grown man, and I'm still learning it myself every day.

I am not denying my child any of his basic rights. I'm not letting him exercise those rights until I, her/his parent, decides they now have sufficient tools to exercise those rights competently.

Yes, I'm going to raise my child in the Christian faith and right-wing(ish) values I know, because those are the ones I know to be true. But, it's not an either or. I fully intend to tell my daughter, "Look, these are Daddy's beliefs, and since you're my child in my house, we're doing it this way. However, one day, you'll be a woman, and you can discard all this if you find this way doesn't work for you." And I'll accept whatever choice she makes.

Because she's not mine. She's my responsibility, but ultimately her business is with her Creator, and no one else.

It was an honor

Okay Ship this part is simply ridiculous. If a person is unable to fulfill their obligations to the state and to their family we don't take their rights away. Also even raising and protecting your child is not an obligation, anyone is free to give them up for adoption or drop them off somewhere if they feel they are unfit to raise children.

I agree children don't know how to use them at a young age, but that doesn't mean they weren't born with these rights.

METAL GEAR!?

Disagreed totally Card. Again, the liberal hype at work.

As someone becomes elderly and we don't think they can drive safely, we curtail their rights. If you become sick or inform, there are certain jobs you cannot hold. If you suffer in some way that impairs your cognition or reasoning ability, then yes, by definition you lose the right to do certain things.

It sounds fashionable to say your born with certain inalienable rights, but the truth is your born with certain expectations that need to be met and competencies reached before you can take those rights.

I can set up a trust for my child, but they still have to be a certain age before they access it.

It was an honor

I don't think anyone has forgotten or is arguing that there shouldn't be obligations next to whatever rights you have. Rather the argument lies on what those obligations are. If you really want to know what your duties are, read your constitution. You'll notice there is no inherent duty to 'family' for example.

My parents never had to do such a thing. Instead they told me about different beliefs and ideas, while still having their own. I was never forced to be religious, right-wing or left-wing, nor did I have to participate in any related rituals (e.g. going to church). Yet I myself chose to believe in God at a very early age and to go to church ocassionally. I also decided to stop believing in God a few years later.

"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."

Aside from a few quibbles with wording, I mostly agree with Starship.

Parents have to be able to force their kids to do stuff. Otherwise they can't parent. Obviously it's better to explain to your kid why they need to do XYZ thing, but if I had a child, and I explained to them patiently why they had to go to school/the dentist/to get vaccinations, and they still said they didn't want to, then yes, I would make them.

I guess church doesn't fall in the same category as school or the dentist, seeing as those are basic necessities, but it's still a choice that the parent is making for the benefit of the child until the child is old enough to decide for themselves.

edited 5th Apr '13 7:01:31 AM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...

@Ship: Not true, we curtail your rights if by merely using them in your state you present a genuine threat. We don't allow people with bad vision to drive because their is a high likely hood there going to kill someone. But we allow wheelchair bound people to live alone even though they would have significant difficulty doing things we take for granted.

I would dispute forcing anybody to go to Church is for their own benefit.

edited 5th Apr '13 7:03:33 AM by Wildcard

METAL GEAR!?

Well, not inherently beneficial, no.

I see it more as "I have joined this community. As my child, you are also a member of this community, and I think that has benefits for you. When you're old enough to decide for yourself you can leave it if you want."

The same thing as sending your kids to one school over another, or enrolling them in some sort of community program.

edited 5th Apr '13 7:14:06 AM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...

Starship, first I strongly disagree with you that basic rights aren't things you get from birth. Basic rights are, now basic rights don't include the right to drive but I'd say they do include the right to freedom of religion, freedom of sexuality and similar.

Second, you're acting as if your kid is gona get a completely free ride. Kids have plenty of duties and obligation, not as many as adults but they lose a lot if rights while only losing a few duties. That's not right.

You kid will be obliged to cleen their room,they will have a duty to atend church, eat their greens, go to school, do their homework, take ou the trash and much more. Why are those not real duties that grant them acess to basic rights?

edited 5th Apr '13 7:17:35 AM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran