Race- Privilege, Relations, Racism, etc.

No.

Portraying a black person as a monkey is always going to be a horrible thing because of the horrible history of portraying black people like that. Even if you "didn't do it because he was black" then it's still awful because you can't just ignore centuries of dehumanization and expect people to divorce your work from that. At the very least, it's horrifically insensitive. Portraying a white person as a monkey is not the same because there is no horrible history of white people being portrayed as monkeys for their skin color. The same thing goes for whiteface.

Racism isn't just prejudice, it's prejudice combined with power. Some people may have experienced prejudice for being white but no one has experienced racism for being white.

edited 25th Mar '14 10:15:18 PM by DrStarky

Put me in motion, drink the potion, use the lotion, drain the ocean, cause commotion, fake devotion, entertain a notion, be Nova Scotian

That.

Thank you. It's always annoying to hear people whine about "it has nothing to do with that, why is my joke considered racist because of history I didn't have a say in?" News flash: none of us get to escape the history of racial oppression that occurred before we were born. For some of us, that means we don't get that good paying job or that house in a nice neighbourhood or fair treatment from law enforcement. If the only thing you lose to racist history is the chance to tell a joke without being considered an asshole, my heart bleeds for you.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

I've heard this argument a lot, but I never get where people get that definition of racism from.

That isn't the definition that Webster, Dictionary.com, Wikitionary or Wikipedia use.

Hell even if I use your definition, I could still argue your wrong.

edited 25th Mar '14 10:53:55 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

I've heard other terms used for the combination of racial prejudice and systemic power, including "oppression". Whatever term you use, it's pretty clear that the problem is racism+power. Racism on its own is annoying but it's not as big a problem.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

What I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't trivialize the suffering that billions of minorities have and still go through by comparing it to silly things like whiteface.

People may joke about how white people are lame or racist but I can't say society as a whole has made my life any degree of worse for being white.

edited 25th Mar '14 11:01:56 PM by DrStarky

Put me in motion, drink the potion, use the lotion, drain the ocean, cause commotion, fake devotion, entertain a notion, be Nova Scotian

But aren't we setting up a new racist system with this? One where one race is treated with attitude of "You shall never say anything that might be offensive" because there is always something in the history, while treating other race as "Insult as much as you want, they deserve it"?

I never understood this attitude of revenge. I know there is history, but honestly, portraying people as monkeys is not limited to black people. Reasons are different, white people got portrayed as individuals and/or political groups while black got the portrayed a race which is bad. Yet, at the same time, if we can put away the prejudice, why can't we play by the same rules?

What can be said about black people? I mean, understand that you should not make offensive remarks about any race on principle, but treating all others as some sort of sacred group that you should never, ever say anything ever because it might offend someone... while at the same time blaming one race for everything and treating them as you can freely insult?

I am egalitarian and as such, I seek equal treatment of all men and women, of all races and sexual orientations and what you got. As such, it irks me when intentionally foster Double Standards.

EDIT

Also, there is a long tradition of portraying Irish as apes. Are we to apply different standards to them too?

edited 26th Mar '14 1:22:55 AM by Mandemo

Interesting. I wonder if China is powerful enough for this to qualify as racist. I mean, I'm certainly flattered by the popular notion that only white people will ever be powerful enough to truly be "racist" by the aforementioned (and absent from dictionaries) definition, but I still have to acknowledge the honor where it's due.

Fact of the matter is, conflating visual stereotypes and caricatures there of, with any historical grievances, is neither productive nor particularly rational. The most frequent "black people as monkeys / white people as ghosts" representations come from East Asian countries, and those have practically no history of oppression against either race. Who knows - maybe we look like that to them (heck, after a good bender, I feel like a ghost); and maybe pointing it out and making fun of it is, while distasteful, no more malicious than, say, popular ideas of Ireland.

To contrast, when Chinese language school hiring ads explicitly say "Caucasian only", that is racist. That is an actual problem. But poorly photoshopped pictures and juvenile caricatures - that's the Internet.

edited 26th Mar '14 2:37:06 AM by indiana404

I'd call that racist. For the same reason I raise an eyebrow when wealthy affluent Chinese from Shanghai was poetic about how horrible the Chinese community is treated in racist North America, when they've never faced a second's racism in their lives and profit immensely from the economic conditions that caused less fortunate Chinese to emigrate to North America in the first place. They're the beneficiaries of an established system of power that favours a certain ethnic group.

So yeah. In China, native Han Chinese hold power, not white people, so that whiteface is racist. BUT - if you're not a white person in China who has to deal with that racism, it's not really your place to bitch about such racism. If you're a white person in North America where racist structures benefit you, then complaining about such racism makes you at least as out of touch as the example I gave above.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

So, you are only allowed to complain about racism is

• You are member of the race being mocked
• Your race has been historically been oppressed
• Your race is in minority
• You live in the area doing the mocking

I guess the Arabs and Africans should just shut up about racism happening in other areas beyond their homes... Only black people in, let's say, US are allowed to complain about racism in US.

Racism is racism is racism. You can't apply random criteria to exclude one group out: That is, in itself, racism. You can be racist without power. You can be racist towards majority.

edited 26th Mar '14 3:18:47 AM by Mandemo

'd,but yeah - technically, I'm a white person in Eastern Europe, but I'm really inspired by the notion above - "I can only point out racism if it directly concerns me". I'm just sure that would help increase awareness of racism as an issue in itself, rather than motivate various minority groups to only focus on their own separate problems.

edited 26th Mar '14 3:21:16 AM by indiana404

Okay. I am an Irish American. My parents left Ireland to avoid a lot of the political and social problems back there.

In the history of America, my people dug ditches with the Chinese and Vietnamese. We were called Black Irish and shanghied into armies. We were often marginalized and can still face discrimination.

Now black people on the other hand, were slaves. They could be massacred in droves in both pre and post civil war times (Rosebud for example). Hundreds of black people were lynched and tortured.

If you want to see a comparable treatment of the Irish you have to go back to Ireland. Not America.

That is the difference people. Yes, the Irish, Italians, Poles, etc. faced discrimination and sometimes still do. But they could own property and have certain jobs. They weren't slaves.

So no. Calling a black man an ape has a much different context and a heavier backhand than calling a white person an ape.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

That's going a bit too far. I'd rather phrase it as "don't claim common oppression with oppressed people with whom you share an ethnic category if you have nothing else in common", and "don't advance a racial difference from which you benefit in your own position even if it would disadvantage you elsewhere". I don't mean to quash intersectionalism (in response to ), far from it. If you're gonna talk about the racism white people face in China, make sure you've talked about what happens to the Uighurs and the Tibetans first.

I am a North American working in Japan and this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. "Oh we face so much racism!" Motherfucker, have you met a Zainichi Korean or an Ainu or a burakumin?

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

I didn't claim oppression. Whole idea of racism "requiring" power is stupid. Once can be racist without oppressing people. You can be racist in many ways, not all of them being "I am openly oppressing you!" Racism can be as simple as belittling someone based on their race.

Furthermore, that sounds like oppression olympics. "You think you have it bad? What about X!?"

To use an example, people complaining that modern wages are way too low. How dare they complain about them in western world, people in Africa do not make as much in year as we do in a single day (moneywise)!

edited 26th Mar '14 5:54:07 AM by Mandemo

Yeah, the "not as bad as argument" is a faulty one. It would mean that only members of the most oppressed people are allowed to complain. Until they're no longer oppressed. Than the formerly second most oppressed are allowed to do so, but not before the most oppressed are not oppressed anymore.

Sure white face is not nearly as problematic as black face. But that doesn't mean it is okay.

I'm just wondering, what's the general rule when it comes to cosplay or Halloween costumes? Most people seem to agree that using any kind of face is bad and to be avoided but I've seen others that go a step further and claim that any white person dressing up as any non-white is racism even if they don't try and look like the other race. That seems a bit extreme to me.

Depends. If it's a predefined characterfrom a movie etc you should be allowed to do so. Not be allowed to would actually be racsim imho. If your whole costume is Race B however I would say it's racism. In the first example you're dressing up as a different race because you ignore race in the second you do the opposite.

That's what I would have assumed to be the case but I once got into an argument with a person over whether or not a white boy cosplaying as Disney's Aladdin was racist. I had a really hard time understanding what the problem was since he didn't seem to be darkening his skin or using any odd mannerisms.

If you are trying to look like someone, a real or fictional character, I see no problem.

Merely trying to look like stereotypical member of Race X is a lot more problematic, though I would want to see the costume and the wearer first before passing judgement.

Prejudice is a problem when people are actively harmed by it, not just because it's prejudice. People are prejudiced. They probably always will be. Towards race, towards sex, towards social class, towards things as simple as what foods are good. I'm botanophobic. I have an irrational fear of plants. I don't want plants in my home. I'm prejudiced against all plants based on early childhood experiences with the movie Little Shop of Horrors. It's unfair to plants, but it's how I am.

And if I keep my prejudice in my own home, and nobody's hurt by it, then that's fine. Setting the standard as, "No one can ever have any prejudices ever!" is patently unrealistic. But if I started going to your home and burning your plants, then my prejudice would become a problem, because I'm actively imposing it on you in a way that worsens your quality of life.

You might think my plant prejudice is silly. And it is, because one prejudice is not equal to another. Nobody's life has ever been ruined by my botanophobia. Botanophobia has never resulted in thousands of people being subjugated. Botanophobia has never destroyed entire cultures. To say that one form or racism is automatically equal to all other forms of racism is to say that botanophobia is as severe an issue as the destruction of Native American culture or the persecution of the Jewish faith throughout history.

As such, prejudice against the Irish is not taken as seriously today as prejudice against black folk, because Irish people have been incorporated and accepted in our society for long enough to become an Acceptable Target. While it's true that in the early days of our nation, they were considered - pardon my phrasing here - "negroes turned inside out", there are few places in our culture today where prejudice against them is taken seriously. You're not going to be barred from a job for being Irish. The worst assumptions you'll face is that you like to drink, and maybe a few Lucky Charms gags from your buddies.

By contrast, black people are still struggling to gain equal treatment. They're not an Acceptable Target because the prejudice against them is still actively harmful. There is still a culture of fear, anger, and dehumanization surrounding black/white relations.

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

So, if I make a picture where I show a white man in chains while a black man is cracking a whip, with text "Natural state", it's not racist.

But if I reverse the colors, it becomes racist?

I think you got massive case of Double Standards there. Both are racist.

Like I said earlier: You can't define racism to exclude one group, because that itself is racist. You can't define racism so that only some groups can be targeted and others can't be.

Everything Tobias said.

If you honestly think that there this a chance that white people are going to be the victims of a racist system (at least in the western world I can't really speak for someplace like China) than you lack any perspective. Like tobias Bringing up people like they

This isn't "oppression olympics" because one side is not oppressed.

A image supporting black enslavement of white people = bad.

A image supporting white enslavement of black people = bad and supportive of a horrible real world institution.

So the latter is many times a bigger problem than the former.

edited 26th Mar '14 8:32:41 AM by DrStarky

Put me in motion, drink the potion, use the lotion, drain the ocean, cause commotion, fake devotion, entertain a notion, be Nova Scotian

I'm with Mandemo: double standards are fucked up regardless of why they're in place.

@dr no, it's not. Both are behind the idea that one race is better than another. We're supposed to be past that as a society. The history of racism should be a lesson in why it's ALL terrible, not any specific one.

I'm baaaaaaack

So you guys are they saying that we should treat all prejudices exactly the same regardless of the levels of power behind them?

You guys don't see any problems that could arise from that?

Put me in motion, drink the potion, use the lotion, drain the ocean, cause commotion, fake devotion, entertain a notion, be Nova Scotian