Race- Privilege, Relations, Racism, etc.

In all my sincerity, I would consider them to be Latino. You can be pale as still have Latin blood like Spain.

And I don't think that's a bad thing. If anything, "white" is supposedly drawn from being Caucasian, which is ethnically closer to Persians than say Mexicans. Then there is always the genetic lottery that hits people without warning every few generations.

I'm saying this as a very pale person nursing a horrible sunburn after only an hour in the light yesterday. Boo to my low melanin content right now! I feel like fried chicken.

Where it does get a little dicey for me is mainly in the States where some people like to claim themselves as Latino even though it is very loose in their heritage. For example, does Antonio Banderas have more of a claim to being Latino than Cameron Diaz just because one is Spanish born in Spain while the other had a Father who can trace his family's roots from Spain to Cuba then America?

I don't know. But I think it's a worthy discussion.

And, of course, the definition of white constantly changes and used to cover Hispanic people.

In the US? I think that opening your mouth is all it takes.

I would feel uncomfortable with Latino peoples claiming to be white not because it's somehow disparaging against whites, but I don't like the idea that being Latino is something that needs to be hidden or covered in any way.

Like how many African Americans would pass themselves off as Southeast Asian to avoid discrimination around the beginning of the States and around the Civil War.

The problem isn't that it's done, the problem is that it has to be done. And the problem isn't with Latinos, it's with people who feel the need to exert some sort of bigotry against them.

Gabrael: I mean I'm pretty sure the Latino population is just going the same way as the Irish and the Italians. So it would not be the first time, unfortunately.

In other words, they're becoming not the target of racism, but the perpetrators of racism?

Mmm I ask because how things are often so scaringly divided into a Color-Coded for Your Convenience sort of schematic for most people. And like said above it is often the accent later which turns things around rather than just the looks.

On Race in Britain — Race should be discussed, Trevor Phillips says^note  And if you're reading right now, David Cameron is indeed going to be interviewed on BuzzFeed

I still don't buy that the fearing of being called racist was a real thing, I suspect that instead the people involved are simply looking for whatever cover story they can find for their own failure.

As for me, I do buy that explanation. I do remember that during that early-2000s Blairite era, there was a lot of cultural pressure not to speak about race or immigration. The rise of UKIP has been, in part, a reaction to those attitudes.

edited 16th Mar '15 11:29:16 AM by Greenmantle

It's one of those uniquely British problems. It's hard to relate to in the US, but it's very much a thing there. Unfortunately it mostly just masks racism rather than fixing the issue.

I feel kinda disparaged there Gabrael, like I grew up considering myself white, even if my skin tone is more similar to Antonio banderas than to Cameron Diaz. And really, to me latino is a ethnic identity more than a melanin category. It's the aggressive categorization of the US that birthed that concept.

There was active collaboration in multiple councils and police forces with the rapists, to the point where outside investigators were threatened with their address being leaked to the wrong sort of people by cops. That goes far enough beyond 'we didn't want to seem racist' to make me somewhat suspicious of it as an explanation.

See, I would consider if you are ethnically Latino, as in you are born from a Latin bloodline, you're Latino regardless of your skin tone. Race is a social construct. Ethnicity isn't.

Skin color isn't the same as ethnicity and you can be ethically identical but it show different. Much like how there are Persians who are as pale as me, but they're still just as Persian as those with darker features.

I don't see how that's a bad thing though and I don't like the idea that being Latino only belongs to the darker skinned people. If that's the case, that's pretty hateful. An ethnic identity is more than just how pale you are.

White is this superior catch all term that needs to die in a fire in my opinion. I don't like it.

I don't mean to imply in any way that's how you're using it. But I don't like how people in my country and otherwise use white flat out wrong.

Personally speaking... as the white son of an interracial couple I'd feel pretty annoyed if someone on the US called me "Latino".

Why?

I think you're speaking only in the context of US race relations, though, Gabrael?

And even then, the US census, for instance, explicitly acknowledges that Latinos can also be white.

I know it might seem racist, but I was raised with that self-image, it was only by interacting with US that I even considered myself brown, and it raises more questions that it answers, my family comes from Azuero, a region where most people are descendant of criollos and mestizos that keep a lot of the spaniard flare in the culture, and it would be a disservice to our cultural identity to call it latino? Are the Congos from the province of colon, latino? they are the black ethnicity. La etnia negra, and their dances and dress are based on antille culture. There's also the sizeable panamanian-chinese community here since before this place was a country. To lump them all together feels extremely silly to me. And offensive to their unique cultural heritages.

Hence why I said in my country white is used inappropriately, and yeah, I'm in the States.

I am uncomfortable with using race as an identifier instead of ethnicity specifically because of these issues and how people like to twist them.

How Hispanic do you need to be to be Hispanic or Latino? Does a Latino with a paler complexion somehow have more or less of a right to identify themselves by ethnicity than the other? It's a tough issue.

I get you can't make everyone happy, much like how some prefer Black instead of African American, or as some would prefer White instead of Latino, but I would rather it be because that is what that individual wants, not what they feel compelled to identify as in order to avoid bigotry. I don't get to see a lot of positive examples of embracing Latino heritage, ethnicity and culture in my region, let alone my country and that's very sad.

I don't think that's racist. I appreciate the chance to understand how others feel about it better.

edited 16th Mar '15 12:40:02 PM by Gabrael

Well it depends on the purveys one is speaking which goes to answering my own question in a way, it seems.

If we want to get strict in the biological sense, then I would be Latino. And not "identifying" myself as Latino would not make me any less latino because when it comes to classifications of haploid genetics then it would still be there wether I liked it or not.

When it comes to culture it depends on where you were raised: and if you accept this fragment of your past and embrace its culture as part of your life.

Here is the thing though, there are still thing that encompass the entire descriptor, broad as it already is, of "Latino". Language itself, for example, would be technically enough to both culturaly and technically make one part of that, is it not?

The problem comes when those labels are just used to tag people as "Others", but if it comes to taxonomical descriptors or so it seems to simply be a thing that you do not really get a choice in choosing

What you call Black History Month in the US has the cultural equivalent here of El Mes de la Etnia Negra. There's also El Cristo Negro de Portobelo. And there are the regional festivities from different indigenous people like the Guna, one of the populations with the most percentage of albinos worldwide, the children of the moon they call them, there's also the Ngabe Bugle people, who's leader right now is a woman. The embera wounan too, in Darien. What I mean to say, at least, and I admit it, as much as we pride ourselves to be a melting pot of cultures, the image of people is still based on colonial ideas, blanco, mestizo, indio, negro, zambo, mulato... The race or ethnicity as you might want to call it, it still shapes cultural barriers from within the nation's cultural space. And to reduce all this complex web of ethnic and cultural identities into a simple Latino. it feels off. Really off. You can call me latino, but would you call Rod Carew latino on reflex? Would you call Bruce Chen latino? Most people in the US wouldn't assume so on first glance. What I mean is, I am panamanian, that means I can be white, I can brown, I can be asian, I can be black, I can be of the original people. What most if not all of us can be is hispanic in cultural heritage (except for the native descendant and the afro-anitillian and the chinese descendants).

And this is where I personally would rather use the specific ethnicity you were, not just Latino. Much like how I would try to use Cherokee or Navajo instead of Native American.

I prefer to use as specific as that individual feels comfortable because I would much rather acknowledge and what is the word, publicize isn't right, but bring awareness or inclusion to that specific group.

I personally find it wonderful that you are so aware of the different native groups in your area as well as respectful of them. It would be really nice if my country could follow suit. We're all the better for it.

But to me, white is just as flawed as Latino. It's just a matter of me trying to use the appropriate language and not come off as offensive or not give proper attention to a group that here at least is very marginalized.

I appreciate you guys! I learn so much in these threads!

...I came here to say something, but it turns out Vandro's points are similar enough to what I was going to say, so I will let that pass.

My mother looks white enough to me, her parents looked darker than her because they were farmers and got a lot of sun. My family has the Alonso which is a common spanish surname and Mogoruza which is a spanish alteration of a Basque surname, although some say my family is descendant from Mozarabes. On my fathers side, I've never met him or his family, he is dark skinned though, most likely zambo or mulato with a deal of native here and there. So you tell me what is my ethnicity?

Gabe, you're sounding a little patronising there. And anyhow, what would an American call a Japanese Brazilian?

Complex. Safer to just stick to nationality.

edited 16th Mar '15 1:18:52 PM by Greenmantle