LGBTQ+ Rights and America

I don't think anyone on the forums is arguing that Francis is not homophobic, but we arguing he's less homophobic than Benedict or John Paul 2. It's an improvement, even if not as much as any of us would like to see. And it's definitely good that he's not supporting Davis like her lawyers claimed.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

Him not being as cuckoo as other popes is important because if you live on a basis that meaningful change on large institutions comes in a single pivotal moment with absolutely no momentum, then I must sadly inform you you will be very, very dissapointed throughout your whole life.

Even if you are correct.

Even the Supreme Court's decision did not change everything immediately. Even the Supreme Court's decision will not fix all of the problems.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

So far, it seems to me that he's a fairly progressive Pope making efforts to reach out to the LGBT community, while everyone beneath him on the chain of command is frantically panicking to try and reinterpret his words and deeds in such a way as to support the party-line they've dogmatically adhered to for centuries.

Pope supports the status quo: "How dare you question the status quo?! Let me tell you what the Pope has to say on that. You have to listen to the Pope, because he is the highest mortal authority on God's Earth. He speaks for the very core of our faith."

Pope opposes the status quo: "No no no, you misunderstand. Don't listen to the Pope, listen to me while I explain to you what the Pope really meant by that."

Now he knows how the Bible feels.

edited 5th Oct '15 11:22:35 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

Personally I think it's a good thing to be disappointed in people's moral shortcomings. I refuse to ever be satisfied with being treated as second class. That's what people like Davis want. Well, that or to feel like they're being persecuted without having to endure any genuine suffering.

No one is excusing any treatment of that nature. Just saying that all victories no matter how small ought to be cherished.

Might be the only victory to the movement you get to witness in your lifetime

Look at civil rights movements and feminist movements. They are still not done.

Being critical is one thing. Being constantly dissapointed sounds like a very depressing way to live.

edited 5th Oct '15 12:46:11 PM by Aszur

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

I'm not "constantly" disappointed. If I were I'd be dead by now, I assure you. But I am disappointed right now in the pope. I'm also disappointed right now in everybody who is sheltering him from any form of criticism, insuring he won't learn anything from this whole "secret meeting with a fanatic criminal" gaffe.

edited 5th Oct '15 1:01:30 PM by Morgikit

Thing is he isn't the one who set the meeting up, so the thing he needs to learn is to get people working for him who aren't going to try and associate him with people like Davis.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

What silas said. it is hardly being objectiveto blame him for stuff when he did not even know who the fuck Kim Davis was

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

Maybe someone shouldn't be setting the pope up secret meetings with people they haven't researched.

Someone somewhere needs to take some kind of responsibility for their actions. This isn't preschool.

edited 5th Oct '15 1:30:19 PM by Morgikit

True. But in this case I'm willing to extend to him the benefit of the doubt.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Oh I'm pretty sure they knew who they were inviting, it's the pope who didn't. Whoever invited Kim Davis did it deliberately, they obviously support Kim Davis and wanted to make the world think that the pope did. The pope simply can't research everyone he meets (I say meets, it wasn't an actual sit down meeting, she was part of a group and from what I get it was a handshake and a picture style thing), the same way the president can't personally research everyone who gets to come into the oval and have a handshake and a group picture with him. That's what staff are for.

Thing is with the papal bureaucracy and power structure, I don't know if it's possible, never mind feasible, for the person responsible to actually be punished.

edited 5th Oct '15 1:40:23 PM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

Just a reminder of the other Kentucky clerks defying federal law

Article says they haven't been sued yet, but the ACLU are looking into it. Will the KKKeepers protect them from the cops too? Probably.

edited 5th Oct '15 1:53:06 PM by Morgikit

Why are we condemning him for meeting with her?

He's the Pope. As a religious leader, is it not his responsibility to speak to people of faith? Also, as a religious leader, is it not his responsibility to keep those conversations in the utmost confidence, regardless of what transpired?

Like, if I was Pope and Hitler was one of my flock, I would probably go to him at some point during the Holocaust. I would tell him to quit being such a shithead because our Lord is very much opposed to the blood he is shedding. And then I would not tell anyone what transpired between me and him because that's how it works for Christians; that conversation is between the believer, the religious authority, God, and no one else.

For all we know, he might have spent the entire conversation going, "You're spreading hate. Quit doing that. You make the baby Jesus cry." We don't know what transpired between them and we never will.

edited 5th Oct '15 2:05:44 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

She's not one of his flock.

Also again, there was no conversation according to the Vatican, it wasn't a one on one meeting, she was "one of several dozen people", the only one on one he had was with his gay student friend and his boyfriend (well I guess that's a two on one meeting?).

Oh and the guy who set the meeting up may lose his job. Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò is the Vatican envoy to the US and he set the meeting up, and may well lose his job for it.

edited 5th Oct '15 2:11:04 PM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

... Which is why Pope Pius XII has such a bad rep (well, not the only reason). Poor Communication Kills

That being said, I think calling it a secret meeting is inaccurate, although that's the line Davis and her supporters were pushing- basically that he covertly met with her to tell her to "keep fighting the good fight".

Thing is, if he supported her, he probably would have said as much- he's not really shy about expressing his views- it's kind of in the job description.

And yeah, although the Pope has interest in a lot of people, including non-Catholics, the fact she isn't Catholic does make it less likely he'd take particular interest in her. If he wanted to support that viewpoint, there's plenty of Conservative Catholic organizations in the U.S.

edited 5th Oct '15 2:11:15 PM by Hodor2

I don't think Francis met with Davis to tell her to stop being an asshole.

Most likely, Francis was presented with a daily list: "Here are the folks you're going to meet with." Not knowing Kim Davis from Michael Douglas, he had no reason to challenge it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

It wasn't a one on one meeting, the Vatican has said she was "one of several dozen people". He did have a one on one meeting, with his former student and his boyfriend, who he invited personally after the former student called the Vatican to ask then decided that the pope would be to busy.

And as it's probably lost due to ninjas. Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò is the Vatican enjoy to the US, he set the Davis meeting up and may lose his job.

edited 5th Oct '15 2:14:16 PM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

At the risk of putting words into Morgikit's mouth, I think she (?) is arguing that the Vatican is lying and it was a private meeting to show support.

That was my initial assumption too (historically, the Vatican does lie a lot), but the way the denials were framed seems to suggest that Francis was pissed at being framed (in both senses) as supporting her.

edited 5th Oct '15 2:16:40 PM by Hodor2

That seems rather unlikely, seeing at the Vatican has never in the past had a problem with being very openly homophobic

Oh and more on Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò (the guy who set the meeting up), he used to be part of the Vatican bank and wanted the Vatican to pull out of the Euro to avoid having to face tougher banking regulations. Also he has to submit a letter of resignation in January due to his age, the letter can be rejected, but I'm thinking it wont be.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

Morgikit doesn't know what was said, but she's not going to accept on faith that the words "Mrs. Davis, stop being a dick", were said at some point.

I almost called her Miss Davis, but whatever the hell else the woman is, she is married. See how I can respect her marriage, but she can't respect the marriages of others?

edited 5th Oct '15 2:21:06 PM by Morgikit

Yeah, that's my thought too. It's like while Francis is better than his predecessors, if he wanted to be homophobic, he wouldn't be secret about it.

Now part of why people are angered at the meeting/why the Vatican backtracked is because if true, it amounts to the head of a foreign country coming to America and encouraging a U.S. government official to continue disobeying laws.

But I'd be surprised if Francis (or either of his two predecessors) would do that.

edited 5th Oct '15 2:21:14 PM by Hodor2

Yeah I doubt he told her to do anything, that would require him to know who she is. As for words, what's normally said in a meet and great? "Hello, nice to meet you"?

Yeah, from a diplomatic perspective it's a hell of a shit storm, you don't dick around in the internal politics of other countries, that's a serious rule.

edited 5th Oct '15 2:32:58 PM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

"Sup Kim? Still repressing North Korea? Hahaha! Just kidding. 'Sup y'all, I'm Francis. I'm the Pope. What's the haps?"

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

@Hodor2: While it wouldn't be out of character for the Vatican to lie it wouldn't be out of character for Davis and her lawyers to do so either ala the Peruvian rally they claimed was in her support that turned out to have happened over a year ago.

Trump delenda est