Philly police arrest man carrying.

Dude, SH you should chill a bit. Calling all police pigs doesn't win support for your views. And police deserve safety as much as anyone else.

Was the cop in the wrong here? As Barkey said, yes he was. But as pro gun as I am, I do not see why people need to open carry. Having your gun out in the open doesn't really serve any purpose aside from posturing.

Police are people too, and like civvies you do have assholes who power trip and hassle others. And then you have people who stop other people from being killed. Honestly, son, I don't see where your fervent anti-police view comes from.

edited 17th May '11 11:39:38 PM by MarkVonLewis

Yes, I value my dignity that much.

If not doing all the officer safety crap got ALL cops killed, but allowed people to keep their dignity, it would STILL be a fair trade-off.

edited 17th May '11 11:43:08 PM by SavageHeathen

...

I guess we need black and white to give the shades of gray a frame of reference or something.

In the name of officer safety, you're proposing that a man who is carrying lawfully and peacefully be forced to go on his knees, disarmed, and handcuffed like a common criminal, so the cops can check his papers, and then let him go on his way.

It's completely backwards!!! The guy is just exercising his rights, the cops should stay the Hell away from him, and not boss him around.

Officer safety needs to die in a fire. They shouldn't get to violate other people's rights to minimize risk to themselves. Police job is risky: Deal with it.

Huh, after some thought... I'm certain Savage is just trolling us at this point. Well, best comedy I've read all night.

edited 17th May '11 11:48:09 PM by MarkVonLewis

So... everyone's entitled to safety and dignity, except for those that try to protect everyone else, because they're authority and therefore evil? Forgive me if I sound like I'm trying to strawman you, but that's what I'm understanding your position as based on this thread and others.

EDIT: Let's say that hypothetically, it turned out the guy was wrong and Philly didn't have an open carry law. Would it then be kosher for the cop to handcuff and disarm him?

edited 17th May '11 11:50:01 PM by Wulf

@SH I can understand how trying to use reverse psychology to convince people to embrace authoritarianism might seem like it's at least worth a shot, but when you overdo the whole ridiculously-belligerent-detestably-prejudiced-anarchist-parody schtick, people start to see what you're doing. If you tone it down a bit, you can still make anarchists out to be a bunch of insane, illogical, and hateful people, while being much more convincing.

RE: "It's not the Wild West/Officer Safety/He was looking for trouble" thing:

As I understand, he was abiding by the law when he was stopped. The officer was not wrong to take precautions once he had stopped the man, but the judgement to stop a man who by all indications appeared to be behaving lawfully is questioned. As for the man looking for trouble, it seems that he was probably trying to play up the incident (a la "Don't taze me, bro"-man's antics) by being uncooperative while trying not to act overtly threatening. That was certainly wrong, but at the same time it's best that people be able to record police and their actions. Their job is to uphold the law, in which case they should be willing to have the lawfulness of their own actions kept under scrutiny.

EDIT: Also, as I understand it, open-carry laws are not an exception to the rule of not carrying guns, but concealed-carry restrictions are an exception to the rule of being allowed to carry guns. Or at least that's how the laws were originally conceived. Those laws were created to ensure that no one could produce a gun from concealment without warning for nefarious purposes, the reasoning being that the only real reason to hide a gun is if you intend to use it illegally.

While it's not normal or necessary to carry a gun around all the time, there's no reason to bar lawful people from doing so, and so most places in the US allow open carry. Why harass people who are obeying the law? I don't see someone planning to rob a bank or what have you walking around with a gun on their hip, since it would just attract more attention. If you're going to use a pistol to commit a crime, most people would conceal it just because that's the more prudent route, leading us back to concealed carry laws as opposed to banning open carry.

edited 17th May '11 11:55:41 PM by Wanderhome

I agree with that. The cops who do fuck up need to be accountable for said fuck ups. But at the same time, why did the man need his gun to be visible? To me it just smacks of macho posturing.

edited 17th May '11 11:50:00 PM by MarkVonLewis

Saying that cops shouldn't be able to degrade civilians to protect themselves is now parody?

So now cops can stop, search and handcuff any person who carries, in the name of their safety? Why?

Even if Philly didn't have an open carry law, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged".

It says "shall not be infringed", not "shall be grudgingly tolerated as long as you comply with every restrictive regulation anti-gun politicians have ever passed".

edited 17th May '11 11:56:03 PM by SavageHeathen

Pretty much everything you are saying, I can't see as anything but parody.

It's not what you say, it's how you say it. Phrasing it that way is not parody. Saying "It would be better for all cops to be killed rather than a single citizen be degraded in the name of officer safety" looks like parody, whether you intended it or not.

SH: Advocating everyone of a certain profession, even reasonable ones, be killed over something so goddamn trivial comes across as naught but satirical.

edited 17th May '11 11:57:53 PM by MarkVonLewis

People's right not to be subjected to degrading treatment is not trivial.

If anyone's safety (not just cops) requires subjecting others to degrading treatment or depriving others from their rights, even temporarily, they don't deserve to be safe.

Perhaps some of you simply don't mind being forced to kneel before a cop. I would mind it very much: I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror again. People have varying degrees of tolerance for thugs asserting authority over them: Mine happens to be zero.

edited 18th May '11 12:04:52 AM by SavageHeathen

Hold on, guy with a gun out, asking for trouble? First thing I would have done would be to get some people who are paid to up hold the peace and were given years of rigorous training in handling a gun among other things, or you know, the police.

So basically I live by the quote "Don't do stupid shit and stupid shit won't happen to you." Carrying a gun out in the open? Stupid shit.

This may be the first time you and I have totally agreed, but QFT. There's absolutely no reason for it, and three very good reasons against.

• 1: It's an offense to polite society. Not everyone likes guns.
• 2: It does wonders for Handgun Control, Inc. Nice Job Breaking It Asshole.
• 3: It won't make your penis one inch bigger, but it sure as hell looks like you'd want it to.

So then, you don't deserve to be safe? After all, your safety relies on the existence of a police force which sometimes must subject others to what you would call degrading treatment. Sure, you have the right to bear arms, and, in most states, the right to kill an intruder in your home or defend yourself in public, but someone trained to do so can do so far more effectively.

Im a person who is crazy psycho about obeying laws, like I want to kill people who break em, but cant cause its against the law type, which is why I kinda hate cops. I would never be a cop because of my zero tolerance issue, so cops who go around acting like 'My piss is pure gold' douche bags can get bent. In this case though I am with the cop as this guy should have complied.

Also whats with all the open carry hate? Its making me sad.

edited 18th May '11 12:10:44 AM by TheDeadMansLife

I'm all for abolishing police.

If people are untrained, training is the answer, not a buncha thugs with power over everyone else.

edited 18th May '11 12:11:04 AM by SavageHeathen

"Open Carry is stupid anyway." - Thorn

Doesn't matter. He still has a right to it, seeing as how he has a permit and all.

edited 18th May '11 12:11:39 AM by neoYTPism

I'm not hating open carry; I was saying it's not necessary to broadcast the fact you are armed.

Odds are, it just makes you a target. The guy open carrying WILL be the first to get shot in any heist.

On the other hand, people open carrying might deter the attempted robbery on the first place.

Silly and obnoxious as Savage is, he has one point: The cops had no right at all to demand the civilian to kneel. Especially considering how they were in the wrong. I don't think an apology would be sufficient for that, either. If the police does so, and it turns out to be wrong, then compensations, money, should be paid for degrading behaviour.

@Usht: As I understand it, he did not have the gun out.

@DS: I'd take issue with the claim that it's "an offense to polite society." Just because some people may be offended by it doesn't mean it should be banned. Also, making the carrying of weapons a taboo for society does more for gun control in the long run than grating against some people by carrying does in the short term. And while carrying a weapon may not increase the size of your penis, science has proven that refraining from perfectly legal and ethical acts simply to make strangers more comfortable shrinks it.

EDIT: @ Octo:

I would say the exact opposite, pretty much. While the cop was by all appearances wrong to stop the man in the first place, once the man was stopped treating him like an armed man (which he, you know, was) was only prudent.

edited 18th May '11 12:15:26 AM by Wanderhome

You can only open carry. It needs a reason to get concealed and a very good reason too.

It sure sucks to be a cop. Cause you gotta enforce the rules. And nobody likes those know-it-all-tattle-tails.

Personally, I love that love/hate relationship.