Philly police arrest man carrying.

Way to go Philly.

According to this article, Philly police confronted and arrested a guy who was openly carrying a Glock 21. Now as dickish as the cops were, there's a line between complying with orders and trying to argure your rights when a gun is pointed at you. Now I can understand carrying the Glock, but does he need to carry recording equipment on his person all the time? Hopefully this wasn't some stunt; makes the rest of us look bad.

Now before anyone starts blasting NWA and Public Enemy, take some time to actually listen to the audio.

edited 17th May '11 4:24:40 PM by Kino

The guy was perfectly reasonable. "Yeah, I'm carrying a weapon: I've got a license, and it's legal to carry."

This kind of abuse of authority and bossing people around is why I hate police viscerally. Those cops should lose his badge, get kicked out unceremoniously and not receive any sort of compensation.

Cops are this way all the time: That's why recording them should be a right: Then the most fascist JB Ts can be kicked out.

edited 17th May '11 4:38:20 PM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

Open Carry is stupid anyway.

This isn't the freaking wild west.

edited 17th May '11 4:38:12 PM by Thorn14

The question of the day, is does Philly have an open carry law, or was the guy just full of shit? A quick google search just seems to bring up a bunch of forums, pro-gun sites and quotes from this incident.

EDIT: More importantly, without any video, we can't see what the guy was doing. Someone who's walking around with recording equipment can say "I had my hands out the whole time" etc, etc, but we don't know what his posture was like, whether he kept trying to go into his pockets, or whatever. In addition, though I'm no police officer, you don't gamble with guns. If you're not sure of the law, and it seems these cops weren't, you shouldn't believe when some guy says "Yes I can have this gun out! Yes huh!"

edited 17th May '11 4:52:50 PM by Wulf

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?

I can see disorderly conduct charges, the guy was arguing with the cop, but reckless endangerment is pointless. Either way, police screwed up, guy screwed up, monkeys win.

If it were up to me, I'd just drop charges against this guy in exchange for the guy agreeing not to take his own legal action. Then internal discipline against the cop for a) either not knowing the law, or worse, b) deliberately going against the law for some personal agenda garbage.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)

I don't see that the cops acted unreasonably. If they honestly didn't know the law and felt threatened, then their actions are fairly understandable. However, pressing charges seems like a ridiculous waste of our tax money just to protect the force's pride. The man was clearly wronged, in that he was arrested, threatened, and held without having done anything at all illegal. The right thing to do would be to issue an official apology and take steps to ensure that officers actually know the laws they are enforcing in the future.

Unless, of course, there's more to the story, like, say, he wasn't actually being as reasonable as he sounds in the video, but was holding his hand near the gun or something.

<><

Kino, you know most phones have a recording feature now right?

Fight smart, not fair.

Yeah; what's your point?

Probably referencing this:

With the obvious answer being: most people do.

<><

I have no love for cops.

Everytime I see and hear videos and records like this I think less and less of them.

My other signature is a Gundam.

Yes, open carry is legal in PA, with no specific restrictions in Philadelphia city.

Now, as to the mistakes made.. There are mistakes on both sides here.

The officers were being completely unprofessional and displayed a disturbing lack of knowledge regarding their own state and city laws. It took me 5 seconds to look up if what this guy was doing was legal. However, the guy recording was being argumentive and belligerent. When a cop has a gun pointed at you, you save the arguments for later. You shut the fuck up and listen.

What should have happened, however, is that since the officer did not know that this guy with the glock on his hip had papers or that he was telling the truth, he did the right thing by telling the individual to go to his knees. He had officer safety in mind, he shouldn't have gotten as aggressive as he had, but the civilian needed to stop arguing with the officer.

He would have gotten on his knees, kept his hands in the air, the officer would have approached from behind and taken the weapon and cuffed the individual for a moment and been directed to the paperwork. The officer would have gotten the paperwork, realized that it was a mistake, and released the civilian. That would have been the proper, justified, and completely legal manner in which this incident should have been conducted and resolved. Instead, a lack of professionalism and knowledge on the part of the officer, and a lack of cooperation on part of the civilian, are what resulted in this mess. The officers are the ones who are easily at the greatest fault, and that officer needs to be fired. The civilian should not be punished for his conduct, but he was still obstructing and being a huge douche about the entire thing in the early stages when he had no right to be angry.

Now, on to what should have happened...

Was wondering when you'd show up.

That's what stood out the most about the guy, certificate or not, its not a good idea to get belligerent when a cop is pointing a gun at you..when you're carrying. Great way to get shot.

Get arrested, deal with it later in court.

And the thing is, this guy was wearing a wire. It makes me think that he was purposely strutting around, open carrying in a way that attracted attention, while wearing a wire, with the specific intent of starting shit with the cops over this issue. His behavior just screams "obnoxious attention whore".

I think getting defensive under those circumstances would be an easy mistake to make, but yeah, he sounds like he's purposefully being a smartass.

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"What should have happened, however, is that since the officer did not know that this guy with the glock on his hip had papers or that he was telling the truth, he did the right thing by telling the individual to go to his knees. He had officer safety in mind, he shouldn't have gotten as aggressive as he had, but the civilian needed to stop arguing with the officer."

I understand an officer taking those kind of measures when dealing with someone who has a gun, but that's not the same thing as walking up to a man who was legally open-carrying and not doing anything suspicious or threatening. If you're pulling him over or approaching him because of a call or what have you, then by all means take appropriate precautions, but it seems unprofessional to walk up out of the blue and confront him when he's not doing anything illegal or suspicious.

That's true, but he did, and at the end of the day someone lawfully exercising their right to open carry being questioned as suspicious is a right of the arresting officer. A police officer has every right to question and examine the paperwork of someone carrying, concealed or openly, and the only safe way to do that does involve the officer disarming them before they check the paperwork.

If officers never questioned the papers and permits of people who carried, how would you ever catch someone who was not legitimately carrying a weapon with proper authorization until they actual start to commit a crime? The papers and permits are essentially useless if nobody ever asks for them. All that essentially does is add an extra charge to tack onto an offense after it is carried out.

If the officer even has a hunch that someone is carrying without a permit to carry, they have every right to demand that proof, and upon that proof being furnished, to apologize and let the civilian go free, no harm, no foul, to either party. Everyone acts like handcuffs automatically mean being under arrest. To a police officer, handcuffs are seen as a safety tool that are frequently used when questioning someone as insurance that they don't take any steps to harm the officer, especially while the officer is going over paperwork or doing something else that requires their attention to be elsewhere. So the situation itself is completely justified, the way it was handled was not justified.

I agree very much with Barkey here, and do have a suspicion that the guy was out looking for an incident. Doesn't make the cop's errors any less, but provoking the police is generally a stupid thing to do.

A brighter future for a darker age.

That's funny, I was thinking exactly the opposite. Recording equipment is useful, for a variety of possible purposes — not the least among which is to gather evidence if someone in a position of authority is abusing their power, of course.

But a Glock... well, I don't want to start a gun control discussion, but allowing people to carry weapons openly is bound to make other people uncomfortable.

edited 17th May '11 10:45:46 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

I'm with Barkey and Morven. The dude was looking for trouble. I'm very much pro-gun, but the "Open Carry" crowd are a bunch of alpha-male-wannabe douche-twats who need a spanking.

As Thorn 14 said, this isn't fucking Deadwood.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

The thing is, this guy is a douche who was looking for exactly the type of incident that he got into. He wanted a confrontation with the police, and was being a belligerent asshole to appear as sympathetic as possible.

Unfortunately, he managed to find a cop that acted in just the unprofessional and shitty manner that he was looking for to prove his point in the first place, and that cop was thus in a position to make his entire department, and by extension profession, look like a bunch of shitbags. I have a friend in Philly PD who is Pennsylvannia Guard, and he's pissed.

@Barkey: as well he should be. People take the police for granted...until they get a speeding ticket or deal with a Jerkass cop for any reason. Then they decide all cops are worthless.

Now, I've had my fair share of negative run-ins with police *

but I still acknowledge that their job is difficult but necessary.

That, and I've got no sympathy or understanding for shit-disturbers like this guy. He got what he wanted...and now everyone else gets to suffer.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

What about the civilian's dignity?

Being forced to kneel before the pigs is degrading treatment. Nobody should ever be subjected to that.

Kudos for the wire, though. If everyone wore a wire, cops would lose their jobs much more frequently. Which means less total fascists with authority over other people.

edited 17th May '11 11:31:41 PM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

@Savage: I think people would have more respect for your beliefs if you didn't act like a parody of every anarchist ever. Also trying to see the other side might help a bit.

No offense meant, but I often have a hard time taking you seriously.

And as to your point...if its unwarranted, then yes its humiliating. But this guy was intentionally looking for trouble. The cops gave it to him, for better or worse.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

I loathe the idea of officer safety; It's a fascistic load of bullshit. Degrading civvies to protect JB Ts is unwarranted.

Cop work is not supposed to be safe. Deal with it without infringing on other people's rights or dignity.

edited 17th May '11 11:33:33 PM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

Using the term "pigs" to refer to policemen is not particularly helping your case.

But in any case, if in order for a person to be safe another one has to occasionally suffer some small, unnecessary indignity — and receive apologies for it afterwards — then so be it.

Do you value your "dignity" so much that you would rather have some people get shot than having a chance of being needlessly handcuffed for five minutes, and then get some apologies about it?

The police could often stand to be more polite, though.

edited 17th May '11 11:38:03 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.