Rewite.: Techno

The description reads like a partial wikipedia article, and the information comes across as disorganized. Furthermore, it barely referenced any tropes and genres related to it (and one of those I just edited in).

There are pages like that. Take the MacOS page, for example. It's all about the Mac OS. The closest it has to tropes is references to videogame development correlating. It's an info. page. They're here everywhere, about authors, writers, etc. Techno is a form of media, so even a page explaining what it is without using the gobbledygook wikiped does is valid.

It could use better organization, though, I agree with you on that.

"There are pages like that."

Where did I make any comment implying there weren't? Try to make sure the opposite point actually is made before you make a counterpoint. It makes it look like you hadn't read my post.

Furthermore, just because pages that look like that exists is not the same as those pages being valid. Finally, you're confusing Useful Notes with a genre explanation page.

edited 10th May '11 4:25:51 PM by DragonQuestZ

So what do we want to do with this? It doesn't seem to be a very useful page to me, so I like the idea of getting rid of it altogether. Other options would be cleaning up the definition and probably moving it into Useful Notes.

Why isn't it in Useful Notes already?

Techno is a music genre, and those are just as valid and main-namespace-worthy as any fiction genre.

Clean up the page, but it doesn't need to be moved to useful notes.

I think I'm rather knowledgeable on this subject, so I cleaned up and rewrote the article, deleted some Youtube links and artist names that felt like they were added there by gushing fans, and added the page to the list of Music Tropes.

Well, I don't remember how the old page looked, but the new one looks pretty good.

I didn't write much new stuff, mostly just rearranged paragraphs and sentences, and corrected examples of bad English and highly subjective statements.

Rewritten page looks good. Shall I lock?

Still really long, and I think a lot of this info would be best moved to a useful notes page, while this should just give a general overview of the genre.

Also needs a proper list of sub-genres, and notable groups.

It's not a useful notes page. There's nothing useful notes about it. It's explaining a genre trope. That's all it is. I agree it could use some examples, but that's no reason to move it to Useful Notes. That's not what that name space is for.

Did you miss the part where I wrote "a lot of this info would be best moved"? That clearly is not the same as the whole page. I'm referring just to the Wall of Text.

edited 11th Oct '11 2:17:23 PM by DragonQuestZ

There is no Wall of Text. What you seeing is an attempt to sum up a diverse genre as neatly as possible. There isn't anything that can be moved to useful notes without crippling the page's ability to describe the genre.

The biggest issue with defining techno is that what counts as techno has changed greatly depending on the time and the place. Thus without those tags you can't really explain what the genre is. Each region and time period has it's own completely different sound. The page does a wonderful job of explaining all those different sounds and how they're different from other similar genres like house or trance.

edited 11th Oct '11 2:27:40 PM by shimaspawn

We don't need the whole history on this page. That is what falls under Useful Notes.

There's no history on the page. There's just genre definitions as organized by place and time which is the only way it works because the style isn't the same in different places. A history would be going into the individual DJs and naming exact years and the like. Not just defining the characteristics of the genre which is what the current article does.

edited 11th Oct '11 2:37:16 PM by shimaspawn

Um, who started the band is history. How it evolved is history. How it grew compared with House music is history. How could you look at that stuff and think it's not explaining the history of the trope?

Or did you not look at the current page and see those are still on that page?

edited 11th Oct '11 2:41:44 PM by DragonQuestZ

Because I know what the genre is, or rather what the genres are. Techno isn't one solid cohesive genre. It's a number of grouped subgenres that are entirely defined by the place and time that they were developed.

Without meeting the criteria of one of the types explained on the page, it's not Techno. You can't define it without that information.

Too many people lump things that aren't Techno into Techno because Industrial, Electronica, House, and Trance all sound the same to them. This page explains exactly what counts as Techno. What you want to cut are the bits that say what the genre actually is and what makes it distinct from those other genres.

edited 11th Oct '11 2:46:22 PM by shimaspawn

"Because I know what the genre is, or rather what the genres are. Techno isn't one solid cohesive genre. It's a number of grouped subgenres that are entirely defined by the place and time that they were developed."

1. Pages are for people who don't know this stuff, and the info should be helpful to them.

2. Definition is not formation. Definition is the result. But even with that info, those belong on sub pages for those specific sub-genres.

"Without meeting the criteria of one of the types explained on the page, it's not Techno. You can't define it without that information."

How does something like it being largely confined to Detroit, or how fans were truck drivers who made robots, tell us what techno is? Those only tell us what kind of situation formed techno. Those are just Useful Notes if people want to discuss how the genre evolved.

"Too many people lump things that aren't Techno into Techno because Industrial, Electronica, House, and Trance all sound the same to them."

Then the page should have info on that instead of a bunch of history bullet points.

"This page explains exactly what counts as Techno."

It't buried under the history of the genre.

"What you want to cut are the bits that say what the genre actually is and what makes it distinct from those other genres."

Wrong. I want to cut the info that DOESN'T tell us that. This is a line from the page.

"While the people in Chicago were partying and having good time, dancing like there's no tomorrow, people in Detroit were putting their own twist to the Windy City producers' music."

That is HISTORY, not an explanation of the genre and how others differ.

Techno isn't a true supergenre though. It's only defined by it's subgenres and things that don't fit into the strict subgenres aren't techno. Thus if you don't define them, you don't define what Techno is.

You're recommending cutting the definition of the genre because you've decided it's irrelevant. What you aren't understanding is that this is the definition of the genre. Not just history as you're dismissing it.

As for the sentence you have quoted there, it is a transition. It's there so that the text doesn't look choppy, crazy, and hard to read because you're jumping from one idea to another at random without warning. If you don't put transitions in your text it's hard to follow if you don't know the subject in depth.

edited 11th Oct '11 3:12:54 PM by shimaspawn

I'm NOT talking about the DIFFERENTION info. I'm talking about the WHO, WHEN, AND WHERE info.

How are you reading this as the former, when I've clearly written about the latter? It's like me saying we don't need to know who designed the Ford Mustang, and you saying we still need to list the specs.

edited 11th Oct '11 3:14:58 PM by DragonQuestZ

You need to know that anime is made in Japan for any of the cultural stuff to make sense. Techno is all cultural baggage based on the regions that it was created in and the groups that created it. You can't separate it from those places without attempting to have a long discussion about what the culture of the place is without mentioning the place.

It's also labelled by the places that's it's from. So you would be attempting to talk about the genre without ever mentioning it's name. It's just silly and confusing.

You're still talking about cutting the base trope definition. I don't get it.

edited 11th Oct '11 3:21:18 PM by shimaspawn

No, cultural baggage is NOT the base definition of a genre or medium. The former is the "why". The latter is the "what".

Now telling us some of the history for differentiation only matters when it directly relates to the form. Knowing that some fans build robots does not explain the form of that genre in anyway. And unless one knows the relevant history of Detroit versus Chicago, that info doesn't inform how a layman can tell a kind of music from another.

Forthermore, why the hell is the info about what is and isn't techno one of the last paragraphs? That does NOT make for a good page.

Err, the page starts off with a one paragraph rudimentary description of techno that informs you that there is more than just those few things needed to count as techno.

The requirements to count as techno are Place, People, Time, and Style. If place, people, time, and style are not all correct, it is not techno. These are not just my criteria. This is how the genre is defined by outside sources. It's really nitpicky, but it's true.

The page then goes into what defines each of the subgenres that count. These are defined as all techno is by place, time, people, and musical style. ALL FOUR of those things must be right for it to count as techno. If you skip defining three of them you aren't defining the genre as it's properly defined.

The last paragraph is your standard not to be confused by.

So in summary, four things define techno, PLACE, TIME, PEOPLE, and STYLE. You can not cut any bits that name those without making it so that the trope can not be defined.

edited 11th Oct '11 3:40:38 PM by shimaspawn

"Err, the page starts off with a one paragraph rudimentary description of techno that informs you that there is more than just those few things needed to count as techno."

That's not the same as letting us know that the term is often used to describe other forms of music.

"The requirements to count as techno are Place, People, Time, and Style."

Okay, let's give that. Then why doesn't the page state that so we know that all the information is important? It just looks like it's listing irrelevant information. So far, your arguments have been telling me more about techno than the page does.

"The page then goes into what defines each of the subgenres that count."

Even if it does, it's done poorly. If the paragraphs are describing each form, it should start off with those names, preferably as bullet points. That way, the information is organized in an understandable manner for the layman.