Complaining bout grinding in RPGs, are they just approaching it WRONG?

Er, what tactical RP Gs have you played.? The only ones I've played are the Fire Emblem and Final Fantasy Tactics series, and, as mentioned earlier in this thread, Fire Emblem usually doesn't even allow you to grind much. I had to grind quite a bit in the original Tactics, but in A2, I don't think grinding was really possible either unless you count the quests as grinding.

edited 9th May '11 9:42:46 AM by Beorc

MY COMPLAINT ABOUT FIRE EMBLEM WAS NOT ABOUT GRINDING, JUST THAT IT DOES NOT GIVE THE FUCKING ATTACK SPEED FORMULA, THIS IS CONSISTENTLY COMMON PROBLEM WITH JRPGS.

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST.

I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to Cidolfas.

Ooooooooohh, my bad, just looked like you were.

I think people don't like grinding not just because they get bored or complain it takes too long, but I think it's because grinding, intentional or unintentional, boots all strategy out the window. Almost JRPG I played could be beaten by just leveling up several times and nothing else (except in the FFT series where I really had to plan which units to use and raise). Got stuck on a boss? Just grind a few levels and you'll beat him (unless he uses a gimmick of some sort)

There's another factor yet to be mentioned: whether the grinding is, itself, any *fun*. While the term "grinding" implies tedious boredom, in some RP Gs, the process of leveling can be, itself, fun.

I would say the problem isn't with mandatory level grinding, its with poorly executed mandatory level grinding. If you have to kill ten thousand helpless bunnies to level one character up, that's probably boring and tedious. If the battle system is reasonable engaging, and you can instead fight comparatively tougher enemies with a reward rate that is decent, OTOH, it might be fun, or at least a good decompress from plot scenes.

Well said. I remember AP grinding in Final Fantasy X 2 for a few hours at one point, but I never got bored simply because the battle/job system was so fun to play around with.

edited 9th May '11 11:06:41 AM by Electivirus

I can give you advice on tackling the post-game through PM (bonus content is off-topic) if you like, it's great at stumping newbies. Basically, if you focus on grinding the traditional way and try to brute-force it you'll be in for trouble.

edited 9th May '11 3:08:19 PM by SpellBlade

One moment, need to get this out of my system

Okay, now I'll go read the thread.

edited 9th May '11 12:13:30 PM by MousaThe14

1. Maybe it's YMMV, but I very very rarely ever have trouble with a game's mechanic. A new RPG and a totally new battle system will cause me to screw up and play the game wrong at first, but by the time I reach the first boss, I usually have the mechanics figured out. In other cases, NP Cs. Almost every game I've played have atleast one NPC who will talk about game mechanics. I don't know if gamers these days bother to talk to NP Cs. But dammnit if I pay $$ to buy my game, I am going to experience it to it's fullest! This includes reading up it's library of backstories etc.

2. This one will vary from game to game. In most games I've played, "party combos" and buff/debuffs ARE more efficient than the "super ultra epic attack" move for the most part. What they lack in damage, more often than not, they make up for it by being efficient. Often times the "super epic attack" is meant to be used to finish off a boss or particularly tough enemy, or only used when there is an opening to use it. Varies from game to game. But most games that have "super epic attack" with no penalties are often so easy you shouldn't need to grind even if you don't use strategy anyways.

3. I'll be honest, I don't remember ever playing any RPG where they don't give you clues on a boss's weakness. In fact, many of the times I feel like they make it too obvious. Other times it's just common sense when it comes to what you should and shouldn't use against a boss. When facing a monster that swims in lava, don't bother shooting fireballs at it. The treasure chests and mosnters in dungeons are often good indicator of what you're up against*

And last but not least. If you don't know what a boss's weakness is and what they do. Just fight it. Test out different elements against it, and see it's attacks. If you win, good for you. If you lose, now you have an idea of what you're up against.

Refer to post #14 about testing a boss out. A boss isn't supposed to be easy.

That's....entirely the fault of the player...most good games have spells/abilities that are meant for bosses and mooks exclusively. For example, an AOE spell is great for mobs, but who would use it on a lone boss?

edited 9th May '11 1:55:24 PM by Signed

I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up, but Mass Effect 2 manages to be an RPG without grinding.

Because Mass Effect 2 isn't an RPG it's a 3rd person shooter with RPG elements.

edited 9th May '11 2:06:57 PM by Neo_Crimson

And there is plenty of pointless combat to go around (its a Bioware game), it's just not random, repeatable or rewarding (again: Bioware game).

edited 9th May '11 2:12:27 PM by deuxhero

You want grinding? Go prepare for Strange Journey's Neutral Final Boss and then come back. =D

I felt Strange Journey's need to grind was largely how fusion was handled (inflated summoning costs for anything with decent skills, the difficulty in passing around decent skills without blowing the limited forma with the fixed inheritances).

edited 9th May '11 4:05:02 PM by deuxhero

I'm not even looking for games that requires grinding...since most RP Gs with post game contents will have plenty of grinding already...

As for Mass Effect...it's status as an RPG is still debatable. It's like calling Bioshock an RPG(interestingly enough, NOT developed by Bioware).

I have to agree with Madass Alex, though. Explaining how X works is much better. For example, Borderlands lets you compare your current gun to one on the ground just by looking at it and tells you how hard a Quest is before you even start it.

Plenty of games explain how things work pretty well only to have people complain that they weren't (See: Mask of The Betrayer's spirit meter, which has a decent explanation when first acquired as well as from the in-game descriptions of the abilities.)

There's also always the option of reading the manual. Which I realize has gone out of style a bit.

Most dragon quest dungeons don't have a boss, but that doesn't change the fact they take grinding to get through or that you have to keep grinding if there is a boss. Status effects? Those stopped working after Golem in Dragon Warrior, especially by the point spells stop working entirely. If they started working again forgive me for being conditioned not to try.

Grinding out rare in new games? If you says so but when you're spammed with enemies too strong to advance and the game doesn't let you know you brought it on yourself, common players will probably grind to stay in that part of the map. When getting penalties you didn't know to avoid loses you weapons that would take away need to grind, then don't be surprised when players are grinding. This is rare in new RP Gs? Fall Out was the RPG most publicized in 2010, besides Dragon Quest, so that's what people think of RP Gs.

So is not using a powerful onetime use item, but that's generally considered a design problem. You just gotta force them to use it.

If a the character's spell does the most attack damage at the time and I have pently mana potions, I would.

But the there's problem, most of stuff i'm talking about isnt in the manual in the first place.

edited 9th May '11 7:06:32 PM by MedicoreNed

While I'm all for transparency in the form of actually telling you the damage formulas and such, there's a difference between mechanics being opaque and mechanics being hidden. For the Fire Emblem example, you complain about them not telling you the attack speed formula (by which I assume you mean the circumstances of getting double attacks), but they do tell you that when a character is faster than their opponent they'll get double attacks. You don't need to know that the number is 4 if you know that fast = good. It doesn't change your gameplay much.

Plus, you rarely need to know that on normal mode in Fire Emblem games and should be able to accurately gauge the chance of double-hitting based on the visible stats. There's no need to info-dump the exact formula on the player, as it's only needed for the higher difficulties.

edited 9th May '11 7:12:13 PM by SpellBlade

Isn't Fire Emblem the game where normal mode was deleted and replaced with hard in the English release? If the info dump is too much, then they could have just given more information later, to be used in replays, but the current info dump apparently didn't let people know enough to get past Radiant Dawn's first chapter anyway.

Keep in mind that "naked" damage formulae, while a Munchkin's wet dream, will dissuade more casual players.