Pakistani opposition calling for leaders to resign

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Pakistan+leaders+urged+quit+over+Laden/4745248/story.html

It seems even Pakistanis are infuriated that their intelligence agencies have been playing both sides, what are your thoughts on this?

edited 7th May '11 7:12:53 AM by thatguythere47

I'm not very surprised, really. if you were a citizen of Pakistan, and suddenly realized the guy next door might be a terrorist like Bin laden and your government was too incompetent to figure it out for YEARS I'd be a tad annoyed as well.

Seeing how ISI is essentially independent of whatever the Pakistani government says, it doesn't seem to matter much in that regard just who is in the government.

However the protests seem much more about the general incompetence of everybody and how the US strike has violated Pakistani sovereignty.

edited 7th May '11 9:32:56 AM by Octo

^ The Pakistanis don't have a pedestal to stand on to protest the actions of the US over Bin Laden. They have been the biggest obstacle to the War On Terror for over 4 years and running.

Them basically protecting Bin Laden outright nullifies any complaint they have about violated sovereignty.

You do realize the vast majority of the populace involved in these protests probably had no blessed clue Bin laden was there, right?

I have to agree with Tom concerning the violation of their sovereignty. The chances of the raid being leaked where to high to inform them.

Well, yes. But that doesnt mean the vast majority of the citizenry are automatically guilty of harboring Bin laden just because their givernment is either incompetent or was outright lying >.>

You can't expect citizens to know about this sort of stuff. From the way it sounds, Bin Laden didn't even leave the house without lots of extra precautions and you know, if I found out my next door neighbor was a terrorist, I'd start wondering about my other next door neighbor. Seriously, the people probably just want to avoid conflict at this point.

^ The "wondering of the other neighbors" bit is probably what led local police to arrest twenty five people in Abbottabad a few days ago.

@Tom This is about the Pakistani people complaining to THEIR government about their alleged incompetance (or complicitness, whichever is the truth and whichever side of the aisle the citizen in question might be on) with regards to bin Laden. That Pakistan the government complains about sovereignity is a given that it rings hollow. Not the same when it comes from their own citizenry because, unlike Islamabad, they've been against drone strikes and the like from the beginning. Don't expect them to care about the war on terror though. Westerners can do so because they have the luxury of doing so. The average Pakistani is more worried about the power grid only being intermittently active 4 hours a day and the secretarian violence (religious or political), to care about some guy they honestly thought was either dead or in Afghanistan (with the rest being VERY prone to Wild Mass Guessing that its all an Indian plot). So lay off on them and keep to their government.

Anyway, that the Pakistani people are complaining is good, but the sad thing is that while General Shuja Pasha will be thrown under the bus (he was supposed to retire a couple of months ago, but had his commission extended a year because of the "need for stability") and the civillian government could always be overthrown or face a parliamentary revolt (the PPP currently has the numbers to technically withstand any vote of no confidence, but that assumes the whole party and its allies remain in lockstep). Considering the parties who are in that coalition, including the PML-Q (basically a collection bin of turncoats from all the other parties created by General Musharraf to rubberstamp his rule thats had trouble keeping all its M Ps together ever since he was ousted), they might have some trouble.

But General Kiyani? Unless the government can successfully take advantage of his current temporary weakness and throw down the hammer (unlikely with Zardari and his prime minister running the show), the General (who, I might add was the ISI chief under Musharraf) is safe.

Speaking of Musharraf, Britain should arrest that guy and serve him the warrant he has out for his arrest...

Wasn't the Pakistani protests about Bin Laden's death only like...300 people? It was a small number from what I hear.

If anything I imagine the common sentiment among those mad is "Why did you fucking lie to the USA now your stupidity is gonna get us in trouble!?"

Thing is the ISI and the Pakistani military are behind the times. Even though the jihadis are pushing what is essentially a low level civil war in there country they still think India is a bigger worry. That is those (and from what I've heard there are quite a few, especially in the ISI who do) who don't think an extreme Islamist government would be a good idea.

Well the conservatives in the country are more angry they didn't detect (and shoot down) the Americans than they are about Osama...only Jamaat ud Dawa is sad about him specifically. The liberals on the other hand are angry for the same reason the US is angry.

Looks like things are getting worse.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/us-spy-in-pakistan-unmasked-as-white-house-demands-intelligence-from-osama-bin-laden-raid/story-fn8ljzlv-1226052320426

I saw on the news that the Prime Minister is preparing a statement about how if we perform another such raid, that they will consider responding with deadly force.

Which is worrying, because all the smart money points to Al Qaedas operations guy, Zawahiri, being in Pakistan. He's been the man behind the curtain the entire time when it comes to the operation of Al Qaeda, and as long as he lives and is free Al Qaeda remains a potent threat.

Suck a fat one Pakistan. Stop harbouring terrorists and you won't have to worry about stealth blackhawks flying into your airspace to raid mansions.

Ugh, we do not need ANOTHER war right now...

Especially with Pakistan. Of all the Muslim countries, Pakistan probably comes just after Saudi Arabia in terms of people you don't want to pick a fight with.

edited 8th May '11 6:41:28 PM by GameChainsaw

Yeaaah, Pakistan would be harder than Iraq and Afghanistan big time. We do not need to spend the lives and money on such a thing. Not now.

Whats Americas supply line to Afghanistan anyway? In terms of basic supplies, obviously planes could be flown out from Turkey, but in terms of heavy equipment like tanks, how would the US support such a war? Besides what is in Afghanistan now?

I get the distinct impression that in the case of war between America and Pakistan, there's a good chance of Pakistan ending up in Kabul.

EDIT: Short of Indian intervention of course. They've curb-stomped Pakistan before and they'd effortlessly do it again in a two front war.

Further EDIT: Of course, that might draw in China... shit, this is looking like a real potential clusterfuck.

edited 8th May '11 6:49:47 PM by GameChainsaw

I doubt this is gonna get that bad. Both countries are smarter than this.

This is typical saber rattling. Nothing new.

I'm betting India would help. They've got a serious hate on for Pakistan don't they?

They do... but on the other hand, last time I checked they've got no real military ties to the US. They're pretty much neutral, and I'm pretty sure they'd disapprove of getting involved in a US-Pakistan war. Plus they've got China watching over their shoulder. I'd be terrified if I was Chinas neighbour.

I'd rather we not get into a major war with shady allies and the threat of china retaliating.

The Indians will decide what to do depending on calculations on how it will affect the Indian economy. For the last six or seven years now, the doctrine has been to essentially sideline Pakistan, focus more on China in the military sphere, and pay more attention internally/economically. This also allows more windfall for weapons without having to exert as much effort which, knowing how Pakistan is always obsessed with besting India with 8 times less (at maximum potential) to work with, so Pakistan ends up killing itself while India gets off easy.

What it means here is, if its more economically beneficial to kick Pakistan out, India would gladly help, provided the Americans wipe out the nuclear capabilities first. If its seen as too risky, or if the Americans can't wipe out the nuclear element of Pakistan, India will sit it out actively but would probably lend its airspace and forward bases temporarily for the US to use. Might even make an airbridge to Afghanistan from its side of Kashmir.

Anyway, I'm more worried about the internal politics. The civillian government (which, it should be said, probably had no part in the OBL situation even if ISI and/or the Army did) might be able to take a chance and bring Rawalpindi to heel. On the other hand, Kiyani could overthrow Zardari to preempt such a move...

EDIT-

Forgot to add, China getting into it would temper the Indians, but that depends on whether China would get into it with the US involved...or the US would get into it with China getting involved.

edited 8th May '11 7:07:21 PM by FFShinra

Its all extremely unlikely of course. Pakistan would have to fire on US aircraft, the US would have to get pissed off enough to declare all out war, Pakistan would then have to do well enough to worry India into attacking Pakistan, and China would then have to see reason to attack India (India and China have had reasons to come to blows at least once in history if I remember, with mixed results.)

EDIT: The only way I can see India attacking Pakistan is if Pakistan looked like staying in Afghanistan. Does Pakistan have any ambitions in the region? Would've thought the last thing they'd want was yet more Pushtun insurgents to deal with. The whole thing would drain Pakistan so badly that India would be just as well off letting the Pakistanis fight over the graveyard of empires while India steams merrily on ahead.

So overall; not going to happen. For starters, I don't think the Pakistanis are that stupid.

edited 8th May '11 7:16:10 PM by GameChainsaw

...is anyone else reminded of the Shadow series?

I mean, what's being described is eerily similar, minus the unified Arab nations and Russian involvement.

edited 8th May '11 7:26:05 PM by deathjavu