This thread exists to discuss British politics.
Political issues related to Northern Ireland and the Crown Dependencies (the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man) are also considered on-topic here if there's no more appropriate OTC thread for them.
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As with other OTC threads, off-topic posts may be thumped or edited by the moderators.
- There is a dedicated thread to discuss LGBTQ+ rights in the United Kingdom. That doesn't mean it's always off-topic here, but unless something's directly linked to political events, that's probably a better thread for it.
- There's also a separate thread to talk about your favourite British Prime Ministers.
Recent political stuff:
- The vote to see if Britain should adopt Alternative Voting has failed.
- Lib Dems lose lots of councils and councillors, whilst Labour make the majority of the gains in England.
- The Scottish National Party do really well in the elections.
A link to the BBC politics page containing relevant information.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 3rd 2023 at 11:15:30 AM
No. Parliament passed a non-binding resolution that they approved of the timetable as it stands.
"Yup. That tasted purple."
On one hand, it's fucking Trump. On the other hand, the USA will hopefully only have to put up with his shit for four years (eight at most) though there will of course be fallout (not literal fallout hopefully) and cleanup afterwards.
I mean, is Brexit something that's permanent? Could the UK rejoin the EU in the future?
If the UK wanted to rejoin in the future, it could apply. However, it would need to follow exactly the same application process that's applied to any other countries. Importantly, countries that wish to join the EU have to agree to Schengen rules and adopt the Euro.
With the UK's history, that would be emphatically enforced on the UK. The UK's vetoes and opt-outs have caused problems in the past (in fairness, all the countries with vetoes and opt-outs have caused problems in the past).
Most importantly of all, a country applying for membership requires full Member State approval - not a single country can say no. The UK would have a lot to prove to every single Member State if it wanted to successfully reapply.
If the stock markets interpret that as a confession 'independence' has failed, the British stock market might collapse. The UK, by rejoining the EU, would also no longer have the passporting that has made it the financial services powerhouse of Europe. It would lose that upon departure from the EU and the UK would not regain that; the EU has been trying to bring the UK banking sector into line with the rest of the EU for many years.
The UK's veto power prevents the EU from being successful on the banking issue because this is an area where, if the UK was 'equal' with the rest of the EU, it would actually be worse off (the British economy is unbalanced in favour of financial services). At the moment, London is the dominant financial services preference for the entirety of the EU, and rivals Wall Street in global influence. Frankfurt stands to gain from Brexit.
Their deals predate the rules that currently exist for the entry of new Member States. New Member States cannot join the EU without adopting the Euro. Note that agreement to adopt the Euro does not mean that the new member has to drop its national currency and adopt the Euro the day it becomes a Member State, what is agreed is a commitment to adopt the Euro and a timetable for the process of switching currencies.
The current schedule is for 2020 to be the key date, after which there will only be five Member States without the Euro. Once Poland and Sweden begin the process of adopting the Euro (they haven't yet met all the criteria for adopting the Euro), that will leave three Member States. Excluding the UK for obvious reasons, will leave just two Member States who are Euro-free post 2020 (Bulgaria, Denmark).
In the whole of the EU, there are only two countries who have an opt-out that allows them to never adopt the Euro - the UK and Denmark. That means, at some point in the future, Bulgaria will probably be expected to join the Euro once it meets all criteria. Given the situation, the UK's departure from the EU will put pressure on Denmark to give up its Euro opt-out.
Very. One of Salmond's arguments for Scottish independence is that it would retain the pound, despite not being a position to actually promise that. If Scotland does go for independence then apply for membership, it would have to adopt the Euro in the long run.
I assume the preference for retaining the pound is because of the stress on a country's economy to change its currency, especially if it has to come up with one from scratch. It won't even have a credit rating, and there will be problems building trust in the new currency. It's not impossible, but it's a big problem that would be undesirable if other alternatives are available.
I've been keeping an eye on this. It sounds like a potential nightmare to implement on practical grounds, so I do have reservations. For example, even if it's feasible, what will this mean for people on the poverty line who wish to retain EU citizenship, but who won't be able to if there's an associated individual cost of membership? To be viable, it would need to be something that can be adopted regardless of economic circumstance, and not something only the wealthy can take advantage of.
edited 14th Jan '18 10:08:47 AM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
I'm fairly sure Article 50 is going to get constantly kicked further and further down the road as each attempt to trigger it hits problems.
We really need more time to even try putting a framework up for how to exit even vaguely gracefully. If we ever actually do manage to even see the bloody Exit. 
Dammit: I could strangle the Tories. Good government Euroscepticsm never has been. Extremist anything makes for wonky policy. <_<
Maybe the hidden silver lining in all this is that the utter shambles we're going to see over the next ten to twenty years will finally put thinking of Britain (if the UK survives) as separate from Europe to bed. It's about time: the Hundred Years War was ages ago, guys. It's about time we got over it.
edited 10th Dec '16 9:06:49 AM by Euodiachloris
Gracefully? I'd like to say that ship has already sailed, but I actually think it sank the moment it left dry-dock. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yeah, well... I'd say it's so far being as graceful as a hippo in a tutu, but Disney proved that can actually work.
Oh, bother.
Look at the bright side. As things go to the crapper next year, you guys can tell yourselves "Eh, it could be worse. We're not being led by an orange shitgibbon."
edited 10th Dec '16 11:07:57 AM by M84
Disgusted, but not surprised
use political terms to describe, not insult
Cue May choking on a chicken bone and Boris Johnson assuming as prime minister.
Looks like the BSkyB deal that failed in 2011 is about to succeed again (in a different form).
Investors had been speculating that the media mogul would bid for the 61 percent of the U.K. satellite broadcaster he doesn’t already own. They might have hoped for more of a fight from the company's independent directors.
There is no deal yet. Sky on Friday said it had received an approach from Fox worth 1,075 pence a share, or 11.3 billion pounds ($14.2 billion) for the freely traded stock. The directors not linked to Murdoch formed an independent committee to assess the offer and have backed the price, but are still negotiating on other terms.
Rupert Murdoch renewed his pursuit of Sky after its shares took a tumble amid cost pressures from expensive content.
Then there's Fox's own independent shareholders, who may not like the company doubling down on Europe. At the offer price, the deal would generate a return on investment of 6 percent in 2019, Gadfly estimates, shy of Sky's cost of capital. Fox investors need to believe Sky's woes really are temporary. Plus a debt-funded deal would push Fox's leverage to well over 3 times combined Ebitda.
Yes Fox is constrained. But it's still astonishing that Sky's independent directors haven't been more robust on price. It seems as if they're being led by pessimistic investors. It should be the other way around.
70% of British newspapers are owned by three companies:
- DMG Media (Viscount Rothemere; flagships are the Daily Mail and The Metro)
- News UK (Murdoch, flagships are The Sun and The Times, also The Scottish Sun)
- Trinity Mirror (David Grigson, flagships are the Daily Mirror, Daily Record, The Sunday Mail)
News UK holds a third of the UK's market share (newspapers) and 20% of the entire media market share (ie, including things like radio).
The other key media groups are:
- Independent Print Limited (Evgeny Levedev, flagships are The Independent and The Evening Standard)
- Northern and Shell (Richard Desmond, flagships are The Daily Star and The Daily Express)
- The Scott Trust Limited (Liz Forgan, flagship is The Guardian)
- The Telegraph Media Group (Barclay Brothers, flagship is The Telegraph)
The 2015 political positions were as follows:
- DMG Media: Conservatives (note: The Scottish Sun supported the SNP)
- News UK: Conservatives
- Trinity Mirror: Labour
- Independent Print Limited: Conservatives
- Northern and Shell: UKIP
- The Scott Trust Limited: Labour
- The Telegraph Media Group: Conservatives
edited 10th Dec '16 5:38:01 PM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
@Wyldchyld: Scotland wouldn't have to come up with a currency from scratch if it had to commit to adopting the Euro. They could still use the pound in the mean time, especially since the Bank of Scotland can issue pound banknotes (though that would probably change if Scotland becomes independant).
With the Royal Bank of Scotland and the Clydesdale Bank, too. All three have the right to print notes... turning independent wouldn't stop that: it's all governed by the same Royal Charter that allows the Bank of England to print notes and harks back to the days when all banks could issue their own notes. England and Wales consolidated under one bank; everybody else didn't.
Keep the Queen, keep the banks, keep the Charter. <shrugs>
Northern Ireland still has four banks that haven't lost the right to print notes, as well.
And, then there's the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey.
edited 10th Dec '16 5:41:35 PM by Euodiachloris
I covered that in my post, albeit very briefly.
Yes, several banks have the ability to print bank notes. However, the Bank of England still has regulatory control over those other banks, including controlling the quotas on how many bank notes each bank is allowed to issue.
The right of the three Scottish banks to issue bank notes (under legal supervision via the Bank of England) comes from a weird combination of the Act of Union 1707 and a campaign in the late Georgian era to retain Scottish bank note production due to a lack of access to gold reserves. Part of the argument for Scottish independence involved repealing that Act of Union, and part of the problem with Scottish bank notes is that they're not legal tender (they're promissory notes). While they are accepted in most places in the UK, they don't have to be, and they usually aren't abroad (although some places do) - acceptance is essentially a goodwill gesture, not a requirement. Both of these issues are why Salmond couldn't guarantee his promise that Scotland would definitely retain Pound Sterling, and why the subject of Scottish tender was such a headache for the experts when questioned about it.
A further problem for the Scottish banks (in event of independence) is the fact that the Westminster government has held an 82% share of the RBS since 2008. That's an obvious headache for independence. Clydesdale had a problem, too. Until this year, it was owned by the National Australia Bank (who bought Clydesdale from its owner Midland Bank (now HSBC)). NAB is in the process of divesting Clydesdale to a holding company called CYBG (Clydesdale and Yorkshire Banking Group) which is an England-registered company (it does have a headquarters in Scotland, however). The fate of two out of three of the Scottish banks capable of issuing Sterling bank notes after Scottish independence would therefore be a huge issue in its own right.
edited 10th Dec '16 6:20:17 PM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
I think the Guardian would be better described as 'Labour, but itching to go Lib Dem if it thought they stood any sort of credible chance'. Their relationship with the boys in red has always been a little uneasy. Might also want to shift Northern and Shell back towards the Conservatives with the collapse of UKIP and the advent of Theresa May.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
New polling suggests that the British public may not accept a Brexit that leaves them worse off economically. Yes, even those who did vote for it.
I can see the fabricated statistics in The Sun now...
I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
The real question to me is will people be able to link any econonomic slowdown to Brexit? Some industries will obviously feel a direct impact... but my guess is that most people in those industries voted for Remain.
My gut feeling is that any recession is going to be blamed on Europe not playing "fair" in the negotiations or on "globalists" fleeing the country, rather than being traced back to the original decision of Brexit.
Never My Fault and all that.
EDIT: Also, take that article with a pinch of salt. I can't find any trace of that You Gov study they're citing.
edited 11th Dec '16 3:53:44 AM by Deadbeatloser22
"Yup. That tasted purple."
The problem is what people regard as 'being worse off personally' and what they're willing to believe will make them worse or better off, and who they will then blame when they do end up worse off.
edited 14th Jan '18 10:14:19 AM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
use political terms to describe, not insult
The Independent is officially regarded as a 'Labour' paper, but came out for the Tories in 2015, telling people Ed Miliband would be a disaster (many 'left-wing' papers were anti-Ed and are anti-Corbyn).
As a result, when the Independent reports on the impact of Conservative government policy on the economy or living standards, they appear to experience a backlash from people reminding them that they told people to vote for this.
As far as I know, the single, genuinely Labour paper right now is The Mirror. Given that it's a tabloid, that doesn't give it a reputation for reliability.
@Deadbeatloser 22: I can't find it on You Gov yet either. The poll was conducted on the 4th-5th December, and they've only just put up another poll from that date (the low Labour support), so it might take some time to go up.
The poll was apparently done for Open Britain (the cross-party organisation of MPs looking to ensure a decent deal from Brexit negotiations). The original report the newspapers seem to be picking up on is here, but it still doesn't link to the actual polling results. We're going to have to keep an eye out to see if this poll goes live anywhere.
Miliband – New poll shows Government faces almighty backlash from Leave voters if Brexit leaves them poorer (and, yes, that leads right back to the Guardian article already linked to).
Cityam.com is displaying charts of the report, which the other sites aren't, so we're going to have to wait and see where this poll is concerned.
edited 14th Jan '18 10:16:42 AM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
British neo-Nazi group 'to be classed as terror organisation and banned' in unprecedented move
An order proscribing fascist group National Action is due to be laid before Parliament on Monday. It will be the first time membership of a far-right group has been outlawed in the UK.
The self-styled “nationalist youth movement” has praised and glorified Thomas Mair, the white supremacist who murdered Labour MP Jo Cox in what a court described as a terrorism offence, and employs anti-Semitic language lifted direct from Adolf Hitler’s Nazi party.
The group’s Yorkshire branch, which is believed to consist of about 100 fascists, also encourages ‘lone wolf activism’ on its website, a phrase which usually refers to acts of terrorism committed by individuals.
Proscribing organisations is difficult because groups “often skirt around the law”, a senior government source told The Sunday Times. National Action, however, has been deemed to have “crossed the line and glorified terrorism”.
One tweet by the group reportedly showed a picture of Mair with the message: “Vote Leave, don’t let this man’s sacrifice go in vain. Jo Cox would have filled Yorkshire with more subhumans!”
Another read: “only 649 M Ps to go.”
The group has also altered its listing on Google to read: “Death to traitors, freedom for Britain!”, a slogan which echoes the phrase Mair said in court when asked to give his name soon after being charged with Ms Cox’s murder.
Mair received a life sentence for the killing when he was convicted last month. The 53-year-old was revealed to have a Third Reich eagle monument, embellished with a swastika, and other Nazi paraphernalia in his bedroom, along with information on white supremacist neo-Nazi movements in the UK and abroad.
The Yorkshire branch of National Action has been accused of seeking to incite the murder of Jewish people, tweeting a derogatory term used by the Nazis to describe Jews during the holocaust: “Tykes gassin K#kes is our motto, #Yorkshire needs you #Anti Communism #Pro National Socialism #Defend Britain."
The groups Twitter account has now been suspended.
National Action is not unique in the UK. The North West Infidels said on social media the group believes Ms Cox “got what she deserved” because of her liberal views and pro-EU stance and urged supporters to “fight extremism with extremism”.
The British government appears to be taking the threat posed by the far-right more seriously than in the past, leading to speculation other groups could be banned in the near future.
Speaking after Mair’s conviction, Home Secretary Amber Rudd said: “I am determined that we challenge extremism in all its forms, including the evil of far right extremism.”
People at risk from far-right indoctrination now account for 25 per cent of all cases receiving help from Channel, the official scheme for those deemed likely to engage in violent extremism, The Times reported.
National Action’s monthly update for November, posted on the group’s website, dismissed reports it could be proscribed as “below discussion on grounds of extreme ignorance”.
“We neither sanction or endorse terrorism,” it said.
M Ps and Peers, however, are reportedly expected to have approved the order banning the group by the end of the week.
Anyone joining or drumming up support for proscribed organisations faces criminal prosecution. Groups can also have their assets frozen.
The Home Office said: “As a matter of routine, we do not comment on whether an organisation is or is not under consideration for proscription.”
Pull the other one.
I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.
A procrastination in of itself
When you start threatening to kill M Ps it's pretty easy for you to get banned, M Ps like death threats about as Busch as the rest of us and they have the power to do something about them.
edited 12th Dec '16 5:58:39 AM by Silasw
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
It's three pictures, Osama Bin Laden, Jihadi John and the White Widow. In other words, three Muslims, one a female in a burka, one with a beard and turban, and the other in a balaclava.
The Sun never surprises me with its depravity, but apathy is not a healthy response. I am and should be incandescent with rage at this and all it implies.
EDIT confirmed its real, there's a video in the comments that proves its yesterdays paper.
edited 12th Dec '16 7:16:04 AM by EruditeEsotericist
The Lord Prior (Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries & Food 1970-1972; Leader of the House of Commons and Lord President of the Council 1972-1974; Secretary of State for Employment 1979-1981; Secretary of State for Northern Ireland 1981-1984) has died at the age of 89.
As Golden Kaos mentioned above, yesterday parliament voted for May to trigger Article 50 by May. So now Brexit is going to happen no matter what. Also today EU negotiators will offer Brits an individual opt-in to remain EU citizens, chief negotiator confirms
A little bit of respite for all the Remainers.
Edit: Whoops my bad, parliament didn't vote for May to trigger Article 50 by May. I got that wrong.
edited 9th Dec '16 1:59:04 PM by KentDawg1
The meme is love, the meme is life. Go check out my youtube channel. :) https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5XjInl2Il9SGEQbyyU0djA