DoesNotLikeMen vs. HeManWomanHater

I think that depends on your definition of mistake, though. I'd consider not having my phone on me at all times a mistake, since that's something I have control over. I wouldn't consider being alone with men a mistake, because if I'm in that situation there's probably a good reason for it (work, research, parties, meetings) and my only other option - "don't be there" - limits my mobility to a ridiculous degree. Again, what could we say to 12-year-olds that would keep them away from rapists? They already know about basic precautions/where to get help if their parents and teachers aren't completely shitty, but there are many rape cases where there's no mistake to make because the victim had no other reasonable choice or control over their situation.

Oh no; you can totally blame the rapists and the victim at the same time. But the victim is innocent, and so you're essentially accusing an innocent girl of causing herself to be raped, which to me is just despicable.

If I trip and fall down the stairs, am I guilty of pushing someone down the stairs? Can the government put me in jail for injuring myself?

Rape is even less ambiguous; the best analogy would be blaming somebody for somebody else pushing them down the stairs. "But she shouldn't have been near the stairs in the first place!"? That's just disrespectful to her, that you insist on finding some blame in her when the only real perpetrator is right there.

You don't know it was alone. You don't know she even knew the guys were there. You don't know anything about the case. As it happens, as Penguin said, she was there with two other girls, and she didn't know the guys who raped her, which I would guess means she didn't even know they would be there.

So yeah, I would say "don't go to a house after a football game with some friends" is an unreasonable level of paranoia.

I'm beginning to detect movement from antifeminism to outright misogyny.

Women, as a class, are not evil. A girl you ask out could do that... but a guy a girl asks out could also. But most girls, and most guys, are not malicious, and if you ask them out the worst you'll normally get is a blunt rejection.

And the guys who were dicks to me in 6th grade would have also, if I had done anything at all to anybody! And they did, in fact, do exactly that!

You don't have a problem with women, you have a problem with 6th graders.

Qualification: It doesn't benefit men relative to a state of perfect equality. It does benefit men relative to women, but that's not terribly useful.

Which, if you read the post, isn't what she was saying:

She still misses the point. Namely:

Again, those precautions protect against other unwanted situations besides just rape; again, they're good ideas in general. And again, she's just flat wrong that it's a big sacrifice of freedom to follow them.

And while it's true "pesky rapes by friends and partners" are more common, they're also things, again, that there's no real good prevention for on the victim's side (that I know of). So again, if people are feeling like making suggestions/comments, they're going to address only the things they can actually suggest/comment on, not because they're completely blind to the existence of acquaintance rape.

I'll also add on the fact that it's the "stranger rapes" that generally get reported by the media, and thus are usually the type of situations people are commenting on when making those suggestions.

edited 8th May '11 9:18:23 AM by Jeysie

I love how describing a scenario where girls can/have been cruel equates to "outright misogyny", in your eyes.

edited 8th May '11 9:44:19 AM by MRDA1981

"You don't have a problem with women, you have a problem with 6th graders." - Black Humor

I never said it was because she was a woman. I said it was evidence that she, as an individual, is the kind of person who has no moral qualms with spreading rumours. The reason I did not mention a corresponding issue for guys is because I would not want to ask out another guy, so don't put words in my mouth.

And my point is that sometimes it is hard to gauge who are the good people and who are the bad ones, hence rejection is not the only issue in high school.

But why give advice at all? I know I don't give advice that I'm not sure works at all and I'm certain doesn't work very well.

Maybe women should just stop worrying about being raped, have you thought of that? If women can't do anything about it, and they usually can't, why bother worrying?

And that's bad.

Implying that girls as a class are cruel is outright misogyny. Or at least, it's very close to it.

But forgive me, I've been spending too much time around trolls on feminist blogs. I've kind of developed a hair trigger against "girls are evil" kinds of responses. You'd be surprised how much misogyny you can get out of guys who start with "this one ex I had..." or "this one girl I asked out...".

Sorry if that wasn't your intention; again, I may be a little paranoid about this kind of thing.

I do wonder why you felt the need to mention girls at all though.

edited 8th May '11 10:15:11 AM by BlackHumor

"But forgive me, I've been spending too much time around trolls on feminist blogs. I've kind of developed a hair trigger against "girls are evil" kinds of responses." - Black Humor

I've kind of developed a hair trigger against accusations of misogyny. I've kind of developed a hair trigger against dismissiveness towards discussion of aspects of life in which men are disadvantaged. I've kind of developed a hair trigger against politically correct witch-hunts against nearly anything that diverges from politically correct doctrine.

Unless you are willing to consider this excusable on my part, I will not consider this excusable on yours. Fair is fair.

"You'd be surprised how much misogyny you can get out of guys who start with "this one ex I had..." or "this one girl I asked out..."." - Black Humor

Which brings me back to my initial question, of whether or not misandry under comparably shaky justifications is any better. It seems going off on a tangent from a tangent led us back to the initial subject.

"Sorry if that wasn't your intention; again, I may be a little paranoid about this kind of thing." - Black Humor

See my initial response at the top of the post.

"I do wonder why you felt the need to mention girls at all though." - Black Humor

You were the one who mentioned the scenario of the guy asking out the girl. You mentioned rejection, and only rejection. I pointed out why this was far from the worst of my fears, at least in high school. (Not as bad in college, as there are too many people around for everyone to remember who everyone else is. Now the issue is more that I ought to figure out where I am going with a career before figuring out where to go with my social life.)

In short, you were the one who mentioned girls; I just responded to your own context.

That's a surprisingly rude response to an apology.

Well, yeah. But it needed to be said. If you would not accept the apology of someone with comparable reasons, I would need to know, as it is relevant to whether or not to accept yours.

If you had phrased that more nicely I would have accepted it as a reason for... whatever it would have been that you were apologizing for with that.

As phrased I think I would've objected "that's not an apology, that's just ranting at me".

(This may be a good time to say that I was not intending to say or imply you specifically were one of the "my ex is such a bitch" guys.)

edited 8th May '11 11:10:39 AM by BlackHumor

Moderator speaking: It is apparent that this discussion has reached a point of discourtesy that merits a lock.