Pull Yourself Up By Your Bootstraps Mentality

Since I mentioned it in a separate topic but didn't want to mess up the other one, I thought I'd bring it here.

I wanted to discuss two related attitudes that I have noticed in some places. The first is the general idea that "anyone can do anything if they just try hard enough" like any failure or success rests on that person's willpower alone and doesn't depend on factors such as luck or other people helping them get there. It might be mainly an American attitude so I'm not sure what people from other countries think of this.

I may be taking this literally, but there also seems to be the expectation that if someone is told "quit whining" or "just get over it" they will stop being bothered by whatever they're complaining about. I kind of doubt most people are that idealistic to think that just being told "don't be upset" will make someone's feelings go away, so what they're probably more likely saying is "I don't think you should be bothered by it" or more cynically "I don't want to hear you complaining about it because I don't want to deal with your problems." Do you think this is true? Opinions? I personally hate being told "just get over it" but that might be because I take people literally and my knee-jerk reaction is to think they're assuming I can turn off my emotions like a light switch.

You can turn off your emotions. Of course, then you're in the dark, which is probably a much worse place to be.

Anyway, I agree, you can't always do it alone, and sometimes you do need help, and there's nothing shameful about that. Pride is a sin as well as sloth.

That's why I tend to say deal with it rather than get over it. You find out what your problems are, determine the best course of action to solve them, then proceed with it. Simple as that.

Regarding "self-made" mentality, it ultimately comes down to the person. Some people are individually gifted, and are capable of incredible things on their own; all you need to do is turn them loose and watch them go. Others can't thrive on their own, but pair them off with the right people, and amazing things will occur.

Neither view (individual achievements vs. teamwork achievements) is superior than the other. However, favoring one over the other unconditionally is stupid. It's a situational thing, depending on who you are working with.

As for why it's seen as an American view, the USA was a "frontier" for a large portion of its history. "Self-made" tends to thrive better in those situations, and indeed two of the most influential presidents were such men. Nowadays, it doesn't always work as well, but it does have its place.

^^

This is how I am pretty much. If I say get over it, it pretty much means I'm sick of hearing about it. I'm more of the deal with it mentality. I usually can distinguish what sort of complaining it is though, I air my grievances at work constantly, but it's to let off steam, not to expect anybody to help me. More often than not I don't want help, I just want to bitch occasionally.

Different horses for different courses, I'm afraid. Some people can "just deal with it", and others cannot.

When one is a self-made person, one tends to belittle others who struggle to do the same things. It takes a certain combination of skills to become successful, including sustained focus, working long hours, an ability and willingness to manipulate others, a streak of ruthlessness, a disregard for the rules (whatever the culture happens to treat as rules), and at least a touch of monomania. One doesn't, and possibly can't, recognize that others lack some of those traits.

Or that not all those traits are, on the whole, positive, healthy things.

New Zealand's traditionally had a "give it a go"/"Have a stab at it" attitude and an expectation that you should be able to do anything you put your mind to - and no whining about it.

My parents grew up during "The Great Depression" and not long prior to that New Zealand was the most remote colony of the Commonwealth (it only became more easily accessed when transport across the USA made for an easier route than sailing around the Cape} so self-reliance and being a Jack/Jill of All Trades were necessary skills as you made use of the skills, people and resources around you because they were all you had and all you were likely to get for quite some time.

You also turned your hand to any work that was going - granddad only had one week off work during The Great Depression and he took that off voluntarily so he could service his motorcycle so he'd have reliable transport for his next job. My dad was licensed to drive almost everything (except trams), was a good mechanic and a trained upholsterer - and when he couldn't find work that involved any of those skills, he worked in factories. My mum used to drive buses and taxis as well as do door-to-door sales and sew clothes for people.

Whatever it took to keep food on the table, you did it and you didn't bitch about it.

But you still stood up for your rights - you'd complain if you had a valid complaint... with a view to rectifying the problem.

Not too surprisingly, I've grown up with a lack of tolerance of people who can't find something they can do. I'm a mostly self-trained computer geek but I've done my share of building paths, factory work, assessing/grading garlic, grounds-keeping and other weird jobs - and there's always the possibility that I may have to something similar again.

I'm currently a solo dad of four kids, aged 3 to 9, and working part time. It's not always easy but it's something that "ya just get on with." I have the "ghost" of my grandmother - in the Great Depression with 5 kids including infants, no electricity, no flushing toilet, no disposable diapers or other modern conveniences and no conveniently-packaged meat (there was a butcher's table and cleavers in the kitchen for a reason) - behind me as a reminder that I've got it pretty fucking good, really, so there's no point bitching about how hard it is.

Arrogance and monomania on my part? Possibly. I never claimed to be perfect.

Everyone needs help every now and then, even the most self-reliant people - the trick is to ask. Asking gets help; whining about not being able to do it gets "harden up!" A certain amount of venting is accepted, but there seems to be a point beyond which a person gets labelled a "whinger" or a "moaner".

And yeah, I've been told to harden up on a number of occasions because I don't like doing something that others have no problem with.

Wolf - How are you keeping electricity, internet access, rent or a mortgage, and food on the table with three kids and just a part time job to support it all? That's not an attack, btw; I'm genuinely curious as to the living expenses down there and how on earth you're making it work. Because I can't think of a way a single part time job would support more than one person where I live without government assistance getting involved!

Being a Manipulative Bastard, ruthlessness, and/or monomania are not required for individual success. They might be part of one approach to getting it, or may come about as a result, but that speaks more of the individual character of the successful person (i.e. they aren't someone you want to be around) than any generalized statement about being self-made.

@Karkadinn:

It helps that I'm on a pretty good hourly rate.

I do get assistance from the govt - I get part of my taxes back as an employed parent and I also get assistance for childcare for my 3-year-old and a little over $100 accommodation supplement. I used to get all those things when I was full-time employed, as well, but lesser amounts.

My income from work has gone down and the tax credit and accommodation supplement have gone up. I'm only a little worse off, financially, now than when I was working full time - I won't be dining on lobster in Paris any time soon but we get by. Not that I could afford lobster, let alone trips to Paris, when I was working full-time.

But I get enough to pay the bills and afford a few small luxuries - can get tight when emergencies crop up but we get by. Thankfully, I'm not someone who has to have the latest-'n'-greatest of everything and if there's something I really want or need going second-hand at a bargain price then I'm happy with that. My kids understand that we get things as and when we can afford them and are quite happy that we at least have computers etc. I know they'd like an X-Box or PS 3 - but that'll have to wait.

It was a good move dropping my hours, tho' - I just did not have enough time in the day to look after my kids, work a whole day and then do shopping and get housework done.

I've gained time to do things and, as I referenced earlier, I've got a lot more quick and easy modern conveniences to help me than my grandmother had.

The hardest part for me is that I'm naturally spontaneous and "do whatever is most urgent" but juggling part time work, housework and getting kids off to school/day-care and back requires a large amount of planning and organisation, which I find difficult to maintain - so I just have to harden up, eh.

I won't say that pulling yourself up by the bootstraps is impossible, as it has surely happened, but in the end the best way to get out of a pit - is for someone good to come along and pull you out.

In order to climb out yourself it must be *known* to you where the hand holds are. If it is not *known*, then you will be fumbling in the darkness.

It's also pretty difficult to pull yourself up by your bootstraps if you can't afford bootstraps.

There's that too.

Attitude does not guarantee success, and - as far as I know - no one has ever seriously suggested that it does; but on the other hand, whining all but guarantees failure.

It's useless, it's bloody annoying, and it often ends up wasting energies that could be used for other purposes; and anyway, a man or a woman should endeavor to be a master of his or her emotions.

This said, I have done more than my share of (unjustified, of course) whining myself, in the past, so I will not speak ill of those who do that.

^^^^ Impressive story, I am in awe!

edited 19th Apr '11 8:36:03 PM by Carciofus

I've noticed that this mentality tends to coincide with one that ranks everyone in a social hierarchy, and treats those lower down the hierarchy as failures who can be exploited and verbally abused with minimal to no karmic repercussions. The ranking system is pretty consistent, but often ridiculous (I have never understood why auto mechanics are considered so inferior to white-collar workers.)

I really hate the whole "just try hard enough" and "deal with it" attitudes myself. Generally because I actually am trying hard enough and trying to deal with it, and it just simply isn't working either because I don't know what to do properly and no one will tell me, because it just inexplicably doesn't work, or because I need something/one else to meet me partway and it just isn't.

Except that usually the people who hold those sorts of attitudes won't accept that fact. They'll claim you're just making excuses, giving up too easily, not trying hard enough, etc. because since it worked for them OF COURSE it has to work for you, because it's completely inconceivable that you could have a different life situation. So not only do I get to be frustrated at putting in effort and getting no results, but I get to be given crap for it as well like it's my fault for being a failure. It's driven me mad to the point of becoming a Berserk Button in more than a few cases.

Finding a job, for instance—no matter how much resume-sending, ad-answering, networking, selling yourself, etc. you do, you still need someone not under your control to meet you partway by actually responding favorably to all that effort and hiring you. Many people seem to forget that little last part there, and prefer to act like it's your fault you haven't been able to find a job despite having actually already done everything they've suggested.

Extra bonus points for the fact that almost all of the time I didn't even ask for their advice to begin with... I was either just venting or, well, doing what I am now—offering up personal experience as data to consider in a conversation.

edited 19th Apr '11 9:18:25 PM by Jeysie

...definition time, I guess.

I see "self-made" as someone whose hard work and/or skill is very great, to the point of allowing them to get beneficial opinions of other people about what they do, regardless of any other factors that might lend themselves to a more negative view.

I think a lot of people seem to forget (choose to forget? maybe) the "other people" part. Nobody lives in a vacuum, and we're all dependent on others. Any belief to the contrary is foolish.

^^ I am sorry, but venting at people is annoying and counterproductive.

This is a personal anecdote, I know, and you wrote that you dislike them; but I wish people had told me that more often and more forcefully. I have been almost unbearably whiny for a while a few years ago, mostly about what I perceived as my failings as a student, and after a while the whole thing had become ridiculous - I was literally spending far more time complaining about being a bad student than, you know, studying.

edited 19th Apr '11 9:58:23 PM by Carciofus

I wasn't venting at people, though. I either was venting in my own personal space where people can choose to visit or not visit, or I was venting in a convo that was already devoted to venting/complaining/discussing about a certain topic.

I don't generally vent at random/constantly, and I only vent after I've already made an attempt to better the situation. (As in, the whole reason I'm in the mood to vent is because I already tried to fix something, usually repeatedly, and it didn't work. So forgive me, but I'd never end up in a situation like you mentioned where I was venting instead of doing something productive.)

I'm not generally blind enough to go around venting inappropriately. It's almost always more along the lines of me "sharing personal experience as data", truth be told.

edited 19th Apr '11 10:08:40 PM by Jeysie

Pulling yourself up by the bootstraps is a good thing. It seems that only in America is there some sort of assumption about how high you should pull yourself. Not everybody can be or wants to be or should be a 'captain of industry'. Most people in most places will accept just getting yourself from 'completely dependent child' to 'self-reliant adult' and building a decent life for yourself.

The other thing is more 'pull yourelf together' which, within limits, is good advice.

Bootstraps aren't and can't be for everyone. The medicine I take is far too expensive to buy on my salary without insurance, and I'm ultimately passing much of my costs onto other clients of the insurance company. Without taking advantage of other people, I'd be much sicklier and have a shorter expected lifespan.

^^^ Fair enough, I was just pointing out why sometimes "deal with it" is an appropriate response.

^ I do not see the problem. That is what insurance is for, after all. You are not taking advantage of anyone: the payments of the other clients of your company are buying your medicine, sure, but this is done with the understanding that if they get sick then they won't have to pay for their medicines either. That's not exploitation, it's risk management.

edited 20th Apr '11 1:35:21 AM by Carciofus

Ralph here again. I didn't mean to offend anyone. There seems to be some confusion about the nature of "bootstrappers," which could be because there are at least two types. One I call the "Yankee Trader," the type I described above, who is successful in business. The other I call the "Kansas Clodhopper," and Wolf1066 described it pretty well. You do what has to be done because there is no one else there to do it for you. You don't complain because there is no one there to hear it. You rely on yourself because the only other option is to give up and die.