"Aggressive" atheism versus "gentle" atheism...

Basically the same reaction you'd have to someone who says they believe in ghosts, then.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

I can see why people might dislike religious belief on the basis of immoral things done by believers, although personally I think those are due more to human nature in general than religion specifically.

But it bothers me when people argue that because a spiritual belief is unable to be verified by science that makes it inherently 'wrong' in a moral sense.

Be not afraid...

^^ If belief in ghosts drove you to advocate the oppression and/or slaughter of people who believed in ghouls, yeah.

^ Not wrong in a moral sense. Wrong in a rational sense.

It's kind of a materialist thing, I guess. As in the philosophy, not the love of possessions.

What an antitheist (or should it be misotheist? Not sure in this instance) might consider to be morally wrong would be worshipping and adoring a being who they might consider to be evil. It implies that the worshipper is also evil, or at the very least a poor judge of character.

edited 17th Apr '11 12:26:12 AM by BobbyG

Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text-Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The Staff

I've... gotten myself annoyed by some religious folks before as much as I don't like to admit it. Sometimes when I'm having a debate with somebody and I ask for the reasoning behind the other person's views. Every now and then, this comes down to something religion-oriented. In any debate, this seems to become an automatic dead-end for me. I don't understand what it's like to be religious, to believe so strongly in something like a god and to commit themselves to a viewpoint based on such a belief.

To me, it feels like a viewpoint without any substance. "Because my religion says so" is incomprehensible as a reason to me.

Helpful Scripts and Stylesheets here.

Seems as good a reason as any to me, if it's an axiomatic thing.

Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text-Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The Staff

I think there's always another reason, behind 'my religion says so' or 'God says so'. I mean, God would always have a reason for saying something is wrong, I doubt He would go around declaring things immoral just for the hell of it.

So in arguments, people should really try and find what that reason is and use it as their argument, not 'God said so'.

Be not afraid...

@Loni: If there's a reasoning behind a lot of the stuff, I've never heard it. Questioning God is generally frowned upon.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

But if God created the whole universe, any reason for morality ultimately has to come back to Him, doesn't it? That's part of the reason for the conflicting views, I think.

Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text-Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The Staff

But God wuld have explained himself at one point, surely. And it's not really questioning God, just trying to understand the spirit of the rules rather than just their exact wording, which can change over time.

Be not afraid...

In the version of Christianity in which I was raised, that was considered "questioning God".

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Argh! If God is supposed to be so all-powerful, things can be made much more simpler if he just came out and explained what he thought of everything...

Helpful Scripts and Stylesheets here.

I have a somewhat irrational prejudice that theists implicitly believe that they are more "moral" than me because of their faith. I'm aware that that is not necessarily true but it's something I have a hard time shaking off.

The other reason it disturbs me a little is that I literally cannot fathom why someone would believe in something that intangible. It just doesn't compute. I'm not saying that to be insulting, and I certainly hope it doesn't come off as such, but it is simply beyond my understanding. I certainly don't view theists as stupid, because such a view is clearly asinine, but I can't help but be unnerved.

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

I don't see why it matters so much what God says in the first place.

Love him or hate him, believe in him or not, we make our own decisions. Decide what you think is right and adhere to your own moral compass. Seek guidance from people you trust when you are in doubt, and if you really believe in what you feel you do, then fuck anyone who says otherwise, including divine beings.

@ pagad: Funnily enough, antitheists tend to make me feel similarly. There's something slightly patronising about their usual attitudes, I think.

@ Barkey: But if you're worshipping somebody as God, surely that implies some level of respect for their opinions?

Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text-Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The Staff

It's a self-perpetuating cycle, I think. Religious people get offended when atheists can't wrap their head around religion, and atheists get offended when religious people can't understand their position.

I know that I don't particularly like people who judge me based off a few superficial details.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

^^

I can't just acknowledge his existence and go on my own way?

It boggles my mind that people just instantly think that we should strive to absolutely emulate our creator and make a huge effort to please him. And I believe in God, but I also believe in following my own personal beliefs, and that I solidify those beliefs through my own contemplation, and experience with others. I can't talk directly to God, so I don't have a clue what he thinks on any issue, and thus I make my own way in the world. All the manmade religions just seem like primitive bullshit to me. Making this effort to throw yourself on your knees to prostrate before the Creator just seems sort of sad, like an obsessive girlfriend doing things that hurts her emotionally because "I MUST MAKE HIM LOVE ME!!!!!".

Once again though, I'm a Deist. So he could give a shit what moral position some human takes on some issue because he thinks it's Gods Will. He might even get a chuckle out of that. If he noticed in the first place.

edited 17th Apr '11 1:15:12 AM by Barkey

A lot of the worst of this could be avoided if people were able to discuss this subject rationally, criticising arguments without attacking people, avoiding personal abuse and so on - basically, all the things we have as rules on this forum. But people are people, and when emotions get involved all those rules tend to get forgotten.

And atheism/theism is literally serious business for many people - perhaps most. We get problems from people who get over-excited about the moral character of Spongebob Squarepants, let alone the meaning of life.

"Well, it's a lifestyle"

As an atheist, I have no interest in converting believers. I want closeted atheists to be able to come out and speak confidently about their position without fear of being looked at like vampires.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

EDIT: Mean Dia is mean.

edited 17th Apr '11 2:27:10 AM by Diamonnes

My name is Cu Chulainn. Beside the raging sea I am left to moan. Sorrow I am, for I brought down my only son.

True enough, but what to do when people run out of reasons? Not saying that there aren't any valid reasons - only that a particular believer is unable to provide any and falls back to the "god said so" argument.

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

Then I suppose they should say "Hold that thought", and then go away for a while and either research the issue or think very hard about it. Hopefully they'll either find a reason, or they'll rethink why they hold that belief in the first place and whether it's worth clinging to.

Be not afraid...

They should, no doubt about it. But if everyone done as they should, we'd be in utopia right now (smiles sadly). But the argument is taking place here an now.

Again, that is not my personal position. My current belief is closer to strong agnostic deism with a lot of misotheism towards certain specific ideas of god, so my reasoning would most likely be: "even if your god exists, how do you know what exactly he/she/it thinks and why worry about it anyway". Still, I hope that makes some sense, as far as explanations go.

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

@ Drunk G: I can respect that, but for a lot of people, religion isn't a superficial detail, it's a major component of being a good person. Like the person quoted in the article - "I spent many years teaching my children to love and respect other people and to love the fact that they were children of God and I don't feel that they should be influenced in any other way especially not at a Christmas parade."

I don't think that kind of difference should be such a big deal, but for a lot of people, it really is.

@ Barkey: But that's just it, you're a deist. Presumably - correct me if I'm wrong, although your post certainly gives this impression - you don't actively worship any God?

The way I see it, deism (much like atheism) is just a question of fact, if true. Either the universe has an architect or it doesn't. That's in contrast with, say, antitheism, which is a question of values. Religious theism is a question of both values and fact - Christians believe that not only is there a God, but that He is a God to whom they are devoted, and whom they feel compelled to worship. Personally, I can't imagine worshipping somebody whose opinions I didn't respect.

So I guess what I'm saying is, for a deist, God's opinions are just somebody's opinions. For a religious person, God's opinions are things which you fervently agree with and want to apply to your own life.

Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text-Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The Staff

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

While I don't do so personally (I have a very anti-conflict personality, much to my chagrin to be honest), I support natural attempts to "convert" people to atheism. What I mean by that, is that I support putting out message out there passively, answering questions, etc. I don't support directly challenging people on their beliefs, unless they instigate it. Then all bets are off :p

Why?

Personally I think that tropes matter. Memes matter. Human beings tend to recognize and think in patterns. As such, I don't think that they're JUST stories. I strongly believe that theism...monotheism, to be precise, bends towards injustice. That's not to say that every theist is a bad person! It's just that in the big scale of things, it bends towards injustice. The reason I think that, is that theism, to me is the belief in an interventionist deity. (Deism is the belief in a non-interventionist deity) I think the way with the most verisimilitude to detangle the problem of evil and an interventionist deity is to assume that he approves of all the crap in the world in one way or another.

As such, I think it's important that atheism, pantheism or even just deism gains critical mass. I actually think that in terms of actual belief we're already there or mostly there. We just don't talk about it. And that's why it's important for atheists to talk about it. Because someone has to. So everybody keeps on following an explicitly monotheistic religion that simply doesn't fit/match their personal beliefs about a "higher power", because that's the tradition.

As such, they're actually empowering strong theists who a lot of them are out there oppressing people who are different and strongly promoting the concept of the "noble poor"/"damned poor" (Think of the virgin/whore bifurcation) all in the name of glory for their god.

That's why I think it's important for atheists to #1. Point out that's what they're doing. BTW, that's why people are pissed at Dawkins. Because he points the above paragraph out, and #2. Present an alternative. As I said. It doesn't need to be outright atheism. I think that VOCAL pantheism or deism is enough! But I think that the end goal is to come to clear definitions/distinctions between divine beliefs in order to discredit truly dangerous versions of said belief.

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve