Being white, and racial identification.

There's a massive tendency to treat whiteness as some amorphous racial concept when it can describe a variety of extremely different peoples. A white-skinned person from Ireland, Australia, Germany, Canada, you name it, will be assumed to have some sort of inherent similarity for the purposes of the term. If the data aims to measure genetic data, then skin colour may be absolutely irrelevant when it comes to figuring out who is genetically similar to whoever-else; but if the data aims to measure social values, then they're better off looking at time period and social position.

These sorts of racial descriptions fail to describe anything but a shallow visual trait, as they're far too general to describe culture or geneology. Or, at least, that's my own personal issue with them.

My question to Tropers is this: if you are white, do you identify as such or by one (or more) of the 'home countries' you are genetically drawn from? Is there a particular reason for this?

Swordsman Troper — Reclaiming The Blade — Watch

Race and culture are different things. I'm not sure if you're trying to point this out or rejecting race by erroneously conflating the two.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Eh. As description, IMO, "white" works. The differences in skin complexion among white people certainly are smaller than among dark-skinned people. Or Middle Eastern/Central Asian/Indian people who can range from whitest white to blackest black.

As an identity - no, of course not. Identity forming requires othering, i.e. contrasting the own group against other groups. There are simply too few dark-skinned people here for any "white" identity becoming popular. And on a personal level, I identify with cultural (not racial/by descant) nationality, anyway.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

To clarify, I'm saying that "white" as a racial description is not highly descriptive by any means.

It's almost a non-identification on both racial and cultural grounds.

Swordsman Troper — Reclaiming The Blade — Watch

"White" tends to be used to mean "of European ancestry" (for the definition of 'Europe' which includes the western part of Russia, of course). As a 'racial' identification, this makes more sense than "Belgian" or "Spanish" or "Australian" or whatever: while European countries have different cultural identities, I think that it is fair to say that, bloodline-wise, us European people are fairly "mixed together".

Not that there's nothing wrong with that.

By the way, the same complaint could be lodged with much more reason about the 'Black' descriptor, which includes African-American people, the hundreds of wildly different ethnic groups of Africa, and a lot of other random populations all around the globe that have nothing in common except somewhat dark skin colors.

edited 14th Apr '11 8:17:59 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

I identify as "Britalian". I love my mother's British heritage, I love Britain (the land, the history, the cities, and the people), I love the old-school-England badass stoic culture that she embodies (I swear, that woman. Loses two pints of blood from a head wound, tells us very calmly that she doesn't think she has to go to the hospital because the bleeding's slowing down, and insists she can go on her 3 mile jog the next morning. Dad and I were covered head to toe in red and didn't listen to a word she said. ). I hope that since my Mom's still a dual citizen that I will be able to one day become a dual citizen of the United Kingdom.

Likewise, I love the Italian side of my family. They're so loud, boisterous, friendly, and cook so damn well that it makes me happy to identify with them. While we don't know any of our relatives that are surely still hanging around Naples, it's a beautiful place and it's nice knowing that my grandparents came from such a beautiful place. There's also a pretty decent-sized Italian-descended population where I live, and it is, bar nothing, full of friendly, boisterous, loud people who cook well.

edited 14th Apr '11 8:24:03 AM by Bur

i. hear. a. sound.

I agree.

Instead of thinking of people in terms of their skin color, I try to think more in terms of the major groups from which they originate, especially since this distinction applies cleanly to me (I am Slavic). It's actually kind of fun to look at a person and guess which cultural groups they descend from.

Banned entirely for telling FE that he was being rude and not contributing to the discussion. I shall watch down from the goon heavens.

I think society(test creators especially just use "white" instead of listing every country who's inhabitants fall under said category; same thing with "black".

Not so sure how it works with the Latin/Hispanic thing; goddamn SAT's.

I was forgetting, identity.

Culturally, I identify as an European, first and foremost, and then as an Italian.

But 'racially', I just do not identify. I owe no special allegiance to any subgroup drawn on genetic lines - other than my extended family, of course.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Well, interesting you bring up Australian.

I was born, raised and continue to live in Australia. For a long time, I've thought our white culture here kind of sucks. The native Aboriginals have a long-standing history and cultural presence here and various other ethnic groups import their own equivalents, but my practical experience with Australian white culture brings to mind the worst stereotypes concerning the Irish and English blended together.

This, I suppose, forms my picture of what being 'white' in general means, but not Italian or Dutch or French or whathaveyou.

Swordsman Troper — Reclaiming The Blade — Watch

The biggest problem is that there is no clean definition of any race, just rough approximations that people today find generally inoffensive. In ten years time some of today's politically correct racial terms will be deemed offensive and others will have changed meaning.

Edited for lack of context.

edited 14th Apr '11 9:13:36 AM by MadassAlex

Swordsman Troper — Reclaiming The Blade — Watch

Well, that got finished quickly. I don't see myself as white. Yes, I'm half-German (by way of Tennessee), but I usually identify myself as Filipino. I guess it's because I grew up in predominately white communities and see it as a kind of blank slate.

edited 14th Apr '11 9:04:04 AM by KitsuneInferno

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt." - Some guy with a snazzy hat.

This one never had to think of herself as white. So "white" is what this one checks when prompted by polls and so on, but it does not play any role in her everyday attitude.

This one identifies as Russian, and that's more than enough.

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

Scottish!

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD

I call myself white because I don't really care about being attached to or proud about my cultural background and because I am a mix. Irish, Scottish, Ukrainian, and German. They're all some form of white, but all are obviously distinct from one another. I feel no attachment to those really though. No pride. I may like those cultures but I do not feel as though I am a part of them. Same with my Mexican-ness. I may have one specific word for it being that there is just Mexican in this half of me, but I do not feel at all like I am a part of the culture. I feel more connected to Thais or Russian Israeli Jews than I do Mexicans, Irish, Scots, Germans, or Ukrainians.

I use the word white in relation to other people mostly for convenience's sake. It's one easy word and I can't always pin down racial heritage too well with white people. Unless you're Russian. I can usually get you if you're Russian.

edited 14th Apr '11 10:48:56 AM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

Identifying yourself based on anything but your own actions and ideas always seems like something that (eventually) should end.

Yeah, well, your own ideas and actions are not readily apparent all of the time, so people typically find themselves a faster way to judge, namely the first thing that is apparent about you, your looks.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

Aye, if I say I'm white my intent is usually just to describe my appearance.

If I wanted to describe my culture I'd generally say English, maybe British.

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I know, I would just prefer if it was something other than that.

I don't really identify as any "race". My ethnic background is confusing. All I can say is that I'm light-skinned and culturally American.

Agreed. However, one can't help but keep in mind the identifications other people hold for them, even if it doesn't matter to them personally.

For example, this one is not personally attached to being female - it is not more important to this one than being brown-eyed. However, when talking about sttus of females, this one identifies clearly as one and it becomes important, because whether I want it or not, people will place importance on this, and my own lack of identification does not make me immune to their decisions.

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

I wish I was white. All the white people I see do not really have a culture and I get really jealous about that.

Please.

"Do not really have a culture", what do you mean by that?