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Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#51: Apr 7th 2011 at 10:07:47 AM

You can tackle this issue from a moral side or from a pragmatic side, but ultimately the solution for both sides turns out to be the same thing. I will admit that my attempting to emphasize moral obligations does tend to drive people away from proposed solutions out of indignation.

Trying to lay ultimate blame on one country or the other probably does more harm than good in this kind of situation, but I wanted to stress that expecting Mexico to spontaneously rise up and change while America continues to do nothing different is not a workable idea.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#52: Apr 7th 2011 at 10:34:23 AM

What else coud we do on the north side of the border to curb the drug trade?

I had heard that we should do more to curb the smuggling of illegal arms shipments heading south, though. But I'd imagine that they'd simply obtain arms from elsewhere, like from their southern neighbors.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#53: Apr 7th 2011 at 10:51:03 AM

Yeah, the only regions I've heard of strict firearm regulations working is in places like Japan. For larger, more broadly accessible regions, it's just not practical.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
TheDeadMansLife Lover of masks. Since: Nov, 2009
Lover of masks.
#54: Apr 7th 2011 at 10:58:27 AM

Heres a question. America must also change its policy blah blah... Yes that might help the border states, but what about southern Mexico?

Please.
pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#55: Apr 7th 2011 at 10:59:35 AM

Mexico hs some pretty strict firearm regulations, yes. So the argument that "outlaw guns, only ouwlaws will have them" thing is more or less accurate in regards to our southern neighbor.

So - more law enforcement personnel on the border to catch shipments of numitions and drugs? I'd imagine that they're trying to work back where these shipments are coming from, tryign to nab people on our side of the fence who gets these things going. For all we know, the weapons might be coming in from outside the US, stored here, and then smuggled agian into Mexico - especially if they're firearms that are already illegal for import into the US, but I'm only speculating and thinking out loud at this point.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#56: Apr 7th 2011 at 12:51:28 PM

Well, I know they've got some predators cruising around the border. Strategically positioned NLOSLS and Intelligent Munition System should help prevent smuggling once spotted.

And my favorite Doom Fortresses idea.

Fight smart, not fair.
Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#57: Apr 7th 2011 at 1:04:16 PM

Even if you somehow obtained the financing (lol) and political clout to completely secure the land border between America and Mexico through force of arms, there's still the sea. It's absolutely impractical. People talk about securing the border that way because they want a simple and fast solution to a problem that is fundamentally large and complex and thus requires a large and complex solution implemented over time.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#58: Apr 7th 2011 at 1:23:36 PM

Yep, plenty of ports - and beaches - you would have to guard or monitor.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#59: Apr 7th 2011 at 1:45:18 PM

Or mine them. You know, which ever.

Fight smart, not fair.
Kino Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Californicating
Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#61: Apr 7th 2011 at 1:54:33 PM

I'm sure the beach tourism industry will just love that.

Honestly, sometimes it's hard to tell when people like Tom and Deboss are seriously putting forth solutions and when they're just throwing out random 'burninate it ALL!' suggestions for the lulz.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#62: Apr 7th 2011 at 2:16:35 PM

Lulz, usually.

California needs the tourism money, so mining the beaches would be bad for business.

So, back to square one - we haven't the manpower to patrol our southern border effectively to stop the smuggling of drugs or weapons (and other things) from flowing. Kind of hard to starve off the supply or demand if we can't do that.

Any other options? I'm drawing a blank.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#63: Apr 7th 2011 at 2:40:41 PM

It's lulz for me. For the most part.

Fight smart, not fair.
MajorTom Eye'm the cutest! Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
#64: Apr 7th 2011 at 3:18:24 PM

^^^ Unless you're talking places that deserve it, I never advocate a "Burninate it ALL!" attitude.

I am serious however about sending the Army to secure the border. We have a near-civil war spilling over onto our side and we're treating it like common thieves instead of the threat to the country it is. Do we need a repeat of Pancho Villa before the border gets taken seriously in that light?

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."
Set Since: Jan, 2001
#65: Apr 7th 2011 at 3:57:01 PM

I really doubt the mexican druglords are willing to leak the war into American territory, it would be like another Pearl Harbor.

I haven't heard of any armed drug group raiding a ranch or village like they do south of the border. They wander about mexican territory 'cause they know they won't face a serious threat. Mexican military is seriously underpowered to fight them, and infiltrated enough so drug dealers will know their moves.

Ok, different approach: As an American good-willing advisor, what would you tell to the Mexican Government? I know, reduce the corruption, but how?

PhilippeO Since: Oct, 2010
#66: Apr 7th 2011 at 7:48:17 PM

Grant Mexican Army monopoly rights to produce and trade drugs

that way the army had money to buy weapons to fight cartel and rise wage of its soldier to eliminate corruption

Tongpu Since: Jan, 2001
#67: Apr 7th 2011 at 8:28:19 PM

I wish I had the energy to learn more about them. Mexico sounds like a great setting for a story about a Punisher-type vigilante.

GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
The Shadows Devour You.
#68: Apr 8th 2011 at 1:03:16 AM

Legalise drugs in America and make it so it is possible to secure a legitimate, non-violent source of drugs in Mexico. As in, take the production of drugs out of the hands of the violent criminals, and into the hands of honest producers. Regulate it like you would any other farming business. Once its established and the violent criminals are driven out of business, then you can tax the heck out of it.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
Ominae Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent Since: Jul, 2010
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
#69: Oct 17th 2019 at 9:19:30 PM

Big things happening ever since El Chapo is locked up, as reported by AFP:

Mexican security forces on Thursday arrested one son of jailed drug kingpin Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman in an operation that triggered intense fighting.

Heavy gunfire rocked Culiacan, a city of 750,000 people, in sustained clashes that left blazing vehicles strewn across the street and sent terrified residents running for cover.

Security Minister Alfonso Durazo confirmed the arrest of a man identifying himself as Ovidio Guzman, one of the sons who assumed partial control of the notorious cartel run by their father until he was extradited to the United States in 2017.

Images carried on Mexican television showed army and police personnel under assault by men armed with heavy weapons.

President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador said his security cabinet was holding a meeting and would soon give further details on the situation.

Sources in the Sinaloa state government speaking on condition of anonymity said police officers had been wounded.

They also said an unknown number of inmates had escaped from the Aguaruto prison in Culiacan amid the chaos.

The state government said it was "working to restore calm and order in the face of the high-impact incidents that have occurred in recent hours in various points around Culiacan."

It called on residents to "remain calm, stay off the streets and be very attentive to official advisories on the evolving situation."

The battle broke out in the afternoon near the state prosecutor's office, when masked gunmen blocked traffic and opened fire, causing panicked drivers to abandon their cars in the middle of the street.

The fighting then spread to several other parts of the city.

Gunmen blocked roads and highways around the city into the evening, bringing the capital to a standstill.

- Gangland rivalry -

"El Chapo," 62, was sentenced to life in prison in July for trafficking hundreds of tons of cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine and marijuana into the United States over the course of a quarter-century.

However, his Sinaloa cartel remains one of the most powerful in Mexico.

Guzman's extradition unleashed an initial period of instability in the group, as Ovidio and his brother Alfredo waged war with cartel co-founder, Ismael "El Mayo" Zambada, for control, leaving a trail of bodies in their wake.

But the situation has since stabilized into a reluctant truce.

Guzman, whose nickname means "Shorty," was rearrested in 2016 after a brazen prison escape — the second of his career.

He is considered the most powerful drug lord since Colombia's Pablo Escobar, who was killed in a police shootout in 1993.

After being convicted in a New York court, he is now serving his sentence in the notorious ADX federal maximum security prison in Colorado, nicknamed the "Alcatraz of the Rockies."

Ovidio and Alfredo have tried to fill their father's shoes, but anti-narcotics experts portray them as flashy party boys who have little ability to run the business side of the cartel.

Known as "Los Chapitos," or The Little Chapos, the pair were attacked in 2016 in a restaurant in the beach town of Puerto Vallarta.

They survived the attack, which the authorities called an attempted hit by rivals.

"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
Ominae Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent Since: Jul, 2010
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
#70: Oct 18th 2019 at 5:11:10 AM

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-50092641

BBC has an update on that incident. Also includes video where Mexican police and cartel sicarios face off.

"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
Ominae Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent Since: Jul, 2010
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
#71: Oct 23rd 2019 at 7:11:36 PM

https://www.cfr.org/blog/amlos-hugs-not-bullets-failing-mexico-1

CFR article regarding the fiasco at Sinaloa.

"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
Ominae Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent Since: Jul, 2010
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
#72: Nov 4th 2019 at 5:51:14 PM

From the Washington Post:

MEXICO CITY — A retired Mexican general has openly criticized the government of President Andrés Manuel López Obrador after the botched attempt to arrest the son of El Chapo — a rare challenge that’s raising concerns about growing discontent in the military.

Gen. Carlos Gaytán blasted the president just days after cartel gunmen swarmed the city of Culiacan to block the arrest of the son of imprisoned former Sinaloa cartel leader Joaquín “El Chapo” Guzmán. Military forces had detained 28-year-old Ovidio Guzmán López but then released him on orders from political leaders who feared a massacre.

The operation has turned into one of the biggest crises for López Obrador since he took office in December.

“We are worried about today’s Mexico,” Gaytán said in a speech on behalf of retired officers at the Defense Ministry. “We feel aggrieved as Mexicans and offended as soldiers.” The transcript was leaked last week to the newspaper La Jornada — an unusual development, given the armed forces’ traditional secrecy.

For decades, Mexico had an unwritten pact with the military that shielded its government from the kinds of coups that rocked Latin America. The military didn’t meddle in politics; in exchange, it received broad autonomy.

That agreement is probably not in danger. But a rift with the armed forces could be problematic for the leftist president, given that he’s relying on the military to confront a surge in violence.

The general’s speech created such a stir that López Obrador declared via Twitter on Saturday that his supporters “will not permit another coup” like the ones that rocked Mexico in the early 20th century.

The López Obrador administration has issued conflicting information about what happened in the Oct. 17 capture of Guzmán, who is wanted in the United States on drug charges. At least 13 people were killed as cartel operatives seized control of Culiacan and took soldiers hostage.

The president has said he wasn’t informed about the raid before it occurred. He has defended the decision to free Guzmán, saying it was necessary to save lives.

Under mounting criticism, López Obrador ordered the defense minister on Thursday to publicly identify the officer who ordered the Culiacan mission. But that only stoked more outrage: Security analysts said the revelation could endanger the officer’s life.

The military “are really upset with that — it was a serious indiscretion,” said Javier Oliva Posada, a political scientist at the National Autonomous University of Mexico with deep sources in the armed forces.

Authorities later clarified that they had named the Mexico City-based supervisor of the anti-drug unit that carried out the operation — not the commander on the ground.

In his Oct. 22 speech, Gaytán referred to the extraordinary power that López Obrador has amassed after crushing the opposition in the July 2018 elections.

The lack of opposition “has permitted a strengthening of the executive, which has made strategic decisions that haven’t convinced everyone, to put it mildly,” Gaytán said. “Each of us here was formed with solid ethical values, which clash with the way in which the country is being run these days.”

He didn’t mention the Culiacan operation. But the speech was arranged to respond to the failed mission, and reflected the military’s concern about a lack of government strategy for reducing violence, Oliva Posada said.

Ricardo Márquez, a former senior security official, said military officials in the past have sometimes expressed political concerns — “but never like this, with such firmness and clarity and in such a delicate moment.”

López Obrador has promised to address violence through social programs, a policy he dubbed “abrazos, no balazos” — hugs, not bullets. But homicides are up more than 3 percent since he took office.

On Thursday, the president dismissed Gaytán’s speech as an opinion. He emphasized that the general was undersecretary of defense during the term of former president Felipe Calderón, who launched Mexico’s war on narcotraffickers. The conflict has claimed an estimated 200,000 lives since 2006, and the army’s reputation has been tarnished by allegations of human rights abuses.

“If [Gaytán’s] argument is that there’s skepticism in the army about our new policy, it’s understandable,” López Obrador told reporters. “Because for a long time there was a policy of extermination, of repression, that we are not going to continue.”

He added that he had full confidence in the military and its loyalty to him.

But military analysts said Gaytán’s speech was hardly just one man’s opinion. It was delivered in front of the defense minister, Gen. Luis Cresencio Sandoval, and hundreds of active and retired officers. Gaytán was chosen by his peers to make the presentation, noted Guillermo Garduño Valero, a national security analyst at the Universidad Autónoma Metropolitana.

“This is the way in which they are revealing the disapproval of the group,” he said.

Another retired general, Sergio Aponte, said in an interview published Sunday in the newsmagazine Proceso that military leaders were “frustrated” by the release of Guzmán.

Falko Ernst is senior analyst for Mexico for the International Crisis Group. Under President Enrique Peña Nieto, López Obrador’s predecessor, he said, the military was sometimes unhappy to be thrust to the forefront of the fight against organized crime.

But any criticism was “not in the open, because that’s part of the code of the military,” he said. The current situation “does break that tradition.”

The Culiacan debacle appears to be chipping away at López Obrador’s approval ratings. They have slipped from 63.6 percent to 60.4 percent in two weeks, according to Roy Campos, the director of the Mitofsky Group, a polling firm. AD

López Obrador is still among the most popular leaders in Latin America. But the Culiacan operation followed major firefights with criminal groups in other parts of the country in which at least 14 security forces died, Campos noted in an interview with Radio Formula.

“People are saying, ‘What world are we in, where the criminals are ruling, the bad guys are winning?’ ”

"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
Ominae Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent Since: Jul, 2010
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
#73: Nov 7th 2019 at 2:43:48 AM

http://armamentresearch.com/weapons-used-by-cartel-sicarios-in-culiacan-mexico/

An analysis on what went down in Sinaloa.

"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
Ominae Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent Since: Jul, 2010
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
#74: Nov 26th 2019 at 9:36:00 PM

Damn. Sicario made it come true.

Trump wants to make the cartels as terrorists.

"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#75: Nov 26th 2019 at 10:25:12 PM

Gonna be honest, given the influence of some of them and their body count (I'm sure some cartels have more victims than actual terrorist groups), that it's actually a fairly understandable attitude.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Nov 26th 2019 at 1:27:54 PM

Watch me destroying my country

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