The World's Largest Fighter Aircraft Competition

Yeah, there is a concept for a navalised variant, but I don't think any proof-of-concept machines have taken to the air yet.

Frankly, I dunno why the countries involved would want a jet that's not carrier-compatible anyway 'cause one of the main designers is Britain and they were planning to sell it to big buyers from the start, so there's plenty of reasons to make a carrier-compatible version. Sure, Germany, Spain and Italy don't have carriers so the naval variant isn't top priority, but there's no way they wouldn't build it sooner rather than later.

Hm... that is a rather bizarre anomaly, considering that as you said they're gunning for all sorts of buyers.

I know I stated the differences, but...in practice...is there THAT much difference between Rafale and Typhoon? I mean, I don't think India wants to fork over so much money if Dassault's bid is as good as Eurofighter's.

I think that is a very good point - if the Eurofighter can't offer any proven benefits over the French aircraft, then its' chances are good as sunk.

The F/A-18E/F has an overall length of 18.31m and a wingspan of 13.62m; it is the largest of the group selected, although the actual title of World's Largest Fighter Aircraft probably goes to the Tupolev Tu-128 'Fiddler', which has a length of 30.08m and a wingspan of 17.53m.

Er....perhaps you misunderstood the title. My apologies, allow me to clarify:

When I meant largest, I mean in terms of the deal. The winner gets $10 Billion and an order for 170 aircraft with an option for a further 70. In that regard, its the world's largest aircraft competition. I think only Lend-Lease had bigger numbers.

Spain, Germany and Italy were interested in a cheaper, not navalised variant. That's why the cheaper variety was prioritized over the naval one.

Pardon, but could we get some links? I'm really interested in this topic, got my own opinions, but I would like to know where you guys are getting your information, esp. the price data. Thanks!

The article about the competition linked in the OP has a pretty good table for comparing the planes, plus a brief introduction of each plane from the point of view of what this competition set out to find.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/mirage-2000s-withdrawn-as-indias-mrca-fighter-competition-changes-01989/

Updates in the competition going all the way to the middle of last month. Also gives its own views about the aircraft (and it's largely where I drew my list of pros and cons from).

Don't forget how incredibly long the development phase took. The Typhoon's core design happened in the 80ies and early 90ies, when the big buyers seemed to be the development countries themselves. Export was not such an important factor in these early days - the Typhoon is, originally, 'a European solution to a European problem', to quote Carlo Kopp.

Plus, most carriers in that time were either purely STOVL or CATOBAR, the first one impossible to realize with such a plane, the second one requiring major design changes. The fact that this was not deemed necessary by the UK and Germany was actually one of the reasons why France chose to go with the Rafale.

Rafale's prettier. :) It didn't spent quite so much time in four different development hells, and it has a working CATOBAR carrier variant. One of the smaller cons against the Rafale would be the reportedly more difficult weapons integration, but the same applied to the Mirage 2000s India already has.

Some of the articles linked earlier contain reports that people in the Department of Defense have already limited the competition to be between the Rafale and the Typhoon after all the tests on all the planes in all the different bases were carried out. Someone also said that the Eurofighter came on top.

If these reports are true and there's been no change, I wonder which plane will win. Both planes are awesome and they're pretty different from each other.

Oh, hi, wikipedia:

STOBAR?

This post was thumped by the Eldritch Flyswatter of Horror

Exactly What It Says on the Tin — a STOBAR aircraft takes off via a ski-jump, lands and is stopped by arrestor cables, like a CATOBAR carrier.

Actually, there is no way to answer the question without knowing exactly what the Indians are going to use it for. There is no "best fighter plane", only the plane that best fulfills the mission for the money you have to spend.

According to the wikipedia article linked in the OP, the Indians want a light to medium fighter to replace their Mig-21's. Without having a background in Indian military doctrine, I'm going to presume that the primary mission of those Mig's is to provide tactical cover to ground forces close to the front, while the Su-30's provide CAP. I further presume that the primary enemy is Pakistan. Within those conditions, "Within Visual Range" or WVR performance is the priority. They need a dogfighter who can keep the Paki's ground attack aircraft of the backs of their own forces.

Pakistan mostly uses Chinese aircraft (while India depends mostly on Russia). A variation of the Mig-21 is the most numerous type, along with some Mirage III/V's (about the same level of performance as the Mig). In addition, they have a few dozen F-16's.

However, the Indians also want a carrier version of this plane (anyone else find that really really interesting? Will they soon be a competitor to the US navy?). Anyway, reading between the lines, it seems obvious why the Indians want a carrier. It isnt to confront Pakistan, which only has a very little coast and not much of a navy. It's to act as a counter-balance to the Chinese, who have been making noises about developing carriers themselves. According to this article, they may have four carriers by 2020, and the most likely aircraft flying off of them will be the Su-33. So what they need is a plane that will be able to hold it's own against that very capable aircraft. Since the Su-33 is a heavy fighter (comparable to an F-14), that will be a very tough mission for a light to medium one.

Finally, the need to make the most out of what you buy for the money means that the need to create an entire new logistics infrastructure is a cost that has to be taken seriously, esp. if the Indians think they may ever have to fight a two-front war (India and Russia vs. Pakistan and China).

One final consideration is that this is only intended to be a temporary solution, until the Indians begin producing their own aircraft in 2020. So they don't need the most up-to-date design, only something that will last another nine years.

Given all that, I personally think the Indians should get Su-33's of their own, but that apparently isn't in the running. They could also acquire upgraded versions of the Mig-29's they already have (i.e. the Mig-35). Basically it would be foolish to do anything else, and the Indians aren't fools. The F-18 could also do this mission cost-effectively, but they need an entirely new logistics infrastructure for that, and the F-18 isn't the best dog-fighter.

NATO countries may not be the most reliable political partners, given the problematic relationship the US and Western Europe have with Russia. The last thing they need is someone playing games with them just as hostilities are getting underway.

So that leaves the Gripen. If they don't go for the Mig's, they should buy Gripens. Gripens are great aircraft, they will play havoc with Pakistan's Chinese build Migs, they can even give the F-16's a good run for their money (esp. since they will have the advantage of numbers), and they are relatively cheap.

Go Gripens!

edited 4th Apr '11 6:03:00 AM by DeMarquis

^

What about the JF-17s that the Pak-Chinese partnership has built? They're going balls to the wall in trying to replace all the old fighters.

Nice analysis BTW.

Depends on the avionics and weapons systems they use. If they use Chinese versions, as this article claims, then they will be no real competition for India's more modern aircraft.

Thanks.

edited 4th Apr '11 2:03:18 PM by DeMarquis

About NATO countries — the Indian Air Force already has a large number of NATO member state-built aircraft:

• Dassault Mirage 2000H (France)
• SEPECAT Jaguar IS/IM (UK/FR, Licence-Built)
• BAE Hawk (UK)
• Hawker Siddeley HS748 (UK)
• Dornier Do 228 (DE/IN)
• Boeing 737 BBJ (USA)
• Lockheed Martin C-130J Hercules (USA)

On the way:

• Boeing P-8I Poseidon (USA)
• Boeing C-17 Globemaster (USA)

So its not impossible, and if anything it is a growing trend — and there are both British and French aircraft in the IAF fleet, so they have done business with the same companies before.

It's not quite as difficult as you've made out.

The JF-17s are, if I remember correctly, designed to replace the Pakistani Air Force's second-hand Mirages — in other words, cheap, basic, not ultra high-tech 'craft.

edited 4th Apr '11 2:25:36 PM by Greenmantle

All the fighter aircraft in your list are obsolete and were all purchased some time ago (the other aircraft are various types of transports and I think may be considered less strategically critical). The problem with NATO's political reliability is contingent on China becoming a real military threat (because they then need Russia as an active partner more), and that possibility is relatively new. So I would expect India to become more cautious as time goes on. Of course this is all speculation on my part, so take with a healthy grain...

I wouldn't call the Jaguar entirely obsolete (the Mirage I'm not too sure about) — in fact the Indians have upgraded the machines — even to the stage of thinking about fitting new engines and as well being one of the few aircraft deemed suitable for the Nuclear Strike role.

...and what about the Hawk? Ok, it's a trainer but it recently entered service.

But the main point of the post was that the Indian Air Force has got experience with NATO-member country aircraft, and that India has had business before with a lot of the countries involved.

Well, word on the grapevine is that if India picks the Typhoon, they'll become more than just experienced...they'll be part of the Eurofighter Consortium.

I know.

And Eurofighter are offering thrust-vectoring engines, and it wouldn't surprise me if the rumoured CFTs*

In other words, Eurofighter are giving them everything.

edited 5th Apr '11 7:53:28 AM by Greenmantle

Sure, in the past they have purchased a variety of western aircraft. And their relationship with the US is better now than at any time in the past. Yet India still has to worry about worst case scenarios in the future.