"XYZ Pride"

Hi,

based on The Almighty Acronym's remarks here, I would like to discuss the idea of "XYZ Pride" - Gay Pride, Black Pride, etc.

I get that it's really about empowerment, and maybe "pride" is just a label that doesn't really apply, strictly speaking. So, something that has always rubbed me the wrong way is that the qualities that pride is attached to are usually not chosen or learned. (Sometimes you can argue about that, but at least with your skin color or gender, it gets somewhat hard to choose.)

The same thing seems to apply to patriotism - another concept I never got. I cannot be proud about my place of birth, because I didn't choose it.

So, how can one be proud about attributes that one didn't work for, or probably didn't even want in the first place? Wouldn't it be more appropriately named "Gay self-acceptance"? Yeah it's a clumsy word, and maybe that's all the reason there is.

So, what exactly do people mean by "XYZ pride"?

Means they can rejoice in who they are, I suppose. I mean, if you have an identity, might as well celebrate it. That being said, still can't care for the idea if only because I also dislike telling children they're special for the same reason.

Pride is dumb anyway.

It seems like all the short, catchy words we have for the concept of being okay with oneself are somehow off, somehow misnomers. They always contain the element of competition, and that's really not what empowerment is about. To the contrary, actually, in my view - empowerment is about stopping to compare myself to others.

I think that's why I always vaguely disliked the phrasing.

"XYZ empowerment", I think, I can live with. I want people to be empowered. Or how about "XYZ rejoicing"?

edited 16th Mar '11 1:02:18 AM by vijeno

Because once you are oppressed enough, you tend to want to be proud of what you are rather than being forced to be ashamed of it. At least being proud of it is more productive. Generally.

^ Mhm, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

The word pride carries very negative connotations for me—the word acceptance is more suitable for such movements I think.

Isn't pride one of the deadly sins? Christians who talk about being proud befuddle me.

(I myself come from a land with Jante law in place. "He's proud" is a mild insult over here. Calling yourself proud is insulting yourself. Maybe that's why our gay pride parade was called simply "gay parade".)

edited 16th Mar '11 4:11:44 AM by fanty

"Pride" in this sense is shorthand for "self-acceptance and conspicuous rejection of shame," usually, with a dash of "visibility." The shorthand is used because it's catchy.

edited 16th Mar '11 4:09:35 AM by Chalkos

@Fanty Yes, it is and Christians who say that are probably too ignorant to realize the irony.

Tell that to the KKK WHITE POWER!

edited 16th Mar '11 6:14:30 AM by joeyjojo

@Fenty: Is 'Jante' a Scandanavian crab bucket memntality, then?

^Not really. It's not about being prevented (and preventing others) from achieving something, but more about attitude. You can be a billionaire, but as long as you make it clear that you don't think yourself to be someone special and don't think that you're better than anyone else, then you still may have a chance to actually be liked.

edited 16th Mar '11 6:44:26 AM by fanty

Because even if you didn't choose it, it's still part of who you are. While it may mean varying amounts to different people, for some it is a large part of who they identify as, and thus they are proud of it.

George Carlin wins the discussion.

Ethnic pleasure makes sense to me; ethnic pride, not so much.

Barkey: To me, pride is a positive emotion about some achievement or status. Something I contributed to. I didn't contribute to my nationality, skin color, or sexual orientation, therefore I cannot be proud of those characteristics.

Which works fine for you, and I'm not saying you should or need to feel pride about those things. I'm just explaining why other people might.

Feeling a need to clear up the difference between ethnic pride and the Christian sinful pride:

• Ethnic pride is basically celebrating who you are as a person. Thus, Black Pride, Spanish Pride, Gay Pride, etc, those things that used to be oppressed at one point but is now a defining point of who you are and a demonstration that you can't be made to regret being black/hispanic/gay/etc.
• The sinful pride is basically being short sighted, valuing yourself above all others, and generally becoming complacent due to your own (overly strong) self recognition.

Same word, different context, severely different meaning. Carry on.

Well, if you think about it, what's the opposite of pride? A lot of people would say "humility", but I don't think that's the case. Humility is more like the absence of pride, downplaying XYZ trait/accomplishment because you don't want to brag. The opposite of pride is "shame"- feeling downright shitty just for having XYZ trait/doing XYZ. In that way, having XYZ Pride is just saying "No! Fuck you, I'm not gonna feel shitty for being XYZ! I'm not ashamed of it, it's part of who I am, I'm proud that I'm XYZ!"

Beside that, these kind of things are more to get the point across that being XYZ isn't an inherently bad thing. Simply saying "I'm okay with being XYZ. I can live with it. It's not like I can change it." implies that there's something bad about it. Saying "I'm proud to be XYZ! It's great! Why would I want to be something else?" accomplishes that much better.

I think of pride, in this context, as a way of giving the middle finger to all the people who whine/rage about you. "We exist, and there is nothing you can do about it."

^^ I think the opposite of pride depends on what flavor of pride you're using, as Usht pointed out.

The opposite of the good-flavored "I like who and what I am" pride would probably be a lack of self-respect, or self-loathing, or something like that. For the Christian, it may look like self-comdemnation (which is NOT good).

The opposite of the bad-flavored pride "I am the bomb, and the rest of you are mindless cretins" would be different - it may take the form of taking pride in others. May or may not be healthy in the opposite, either.

I think you guys are putting a bit of a negative spin on pride, and trying to define it as being proud of something despite oppression or whatever.

Pride is just that, being proud of yourself for something. You don't have to be an oppressed minority to be proud of something, you can be proud of anything. I can be proud that I'm really badass at taking out the trash, and it's still pride. It's what you make of it.

I don't think there's anything wrong with being happy with certain elements of yourself, so long as you don't use it as a vehicle for patronizing others.

edited 16th Mar '11 12:06:32 PM by Barkey

^ I agree. There's good pride, and if you got it, no problem. But as with most things in life, it can get out of hand and too much of a good thing can be a hinderance.

Wow, normally I really don't like Carlin, but I must admit, that video was awesome.