Atheist or Agnostic?

*cough*

edited 12th Jun '11 2:17:59 PM by Justice4243

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15 FimFiction account.

<mod hat on>

While this is all very interesting, this is a derail. The topic here is atheism and agnosticism, and the labelling of oneself as one or the other. For the last time, take this discussion of idealist and materialist metaphysics to another thread. Might I recommend the thread which was created for the express purpose of housing this derail?

"Booby"? I have no sympathy whatsoever.

edited 12th Jun '11 5:05:40 PM by BobbyG

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Sorry, Booby!

I actually thought that this was the other thread (since I had both tabs open and didn't remember which one I opened first.)

But still: sorry! Didn't mean to derail, especially since you went to the effort of starting a thread for this.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

I'm an agnostic atheist. Though I'm still a member of a church, it just hasn't been important enough for me to do anything about it. I think I'll resign when the issue with taxes comes up - though its something like 1% it's still money. If I were to choose a religion to join, it'd probably be buddhism.

Argeus the Paladin:

The problem with Pascals Wager is that if a god/gods does exist and you worship at the wrong temple it might not like it. At least Yahweh is said to dislike people worshiping other gods, why wouldn't other gods have the same attitude?

Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.

Well, the real problem with Pascal's Wager, in my opinion, is that you would be faking it. And if God exists, going through the motions to try and decieve God (who is omniscient) when you're really an atheist at heart is likely to piss Him off more than if you were just openly atheist.

"War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left." "Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future."

Atheist, not Agnostic. Because in the absence of supporting evidence you don't automatically take the middle position. It is to be viewed as false by default, excepting when any evidence comes in to support it.

yey

^^ The intent is to keep practicing it anyway until you essentially brainwash yourself into sincere belief.

Though I've heard it argued that this is not actually possible, and merely results in Dennett's "belief in belief". Not sure which is true in practice, if indeed it doesn't vary from person to person.

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Pascal’s wager is about faking it until you make it, that is, it’s part of a process of Becoming the Mask.

That being said, it doesn’t address issues regarding other religions. Pascal seemed to be assuming Christianity was the true religion and didn’t mention others. Or if he did, he covered it in some other way outside the wager.

Edit: Ninja'd

This is probably a topic in itself, but the Bible is clear on being anti-idolatry and that considering oneself a Christian or Jew requires that God be ones #1 god. It doesn’t necessarily attack other religions as a whole. Notably absent from the New Testament is any mention of the Roman gods, for instance.

edited 14th Jun '11 1:22:55 PM by Justice4243

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15 FimFiction account.

I was never a fan of the Pascal's Wager argument, on the basis that:

1. It assumes that there's a 50/50 percent chance that heaven exists, and that anyone who has faith gets in. Considering how many faiths mandate that you worship this particular god in this incredibly specific way or else, how many faiths have gods that don't give a shit that you worship them, and how many faiths don't have an afterlife at all, assuming the above is just silly.

2. It assumes that worshiping or having faith takes no physical or emotional effort, which is why having faith is the no cost, no loss, potential reward decision. I've been in the Catholic Church long enough to know that that is complete and utter bullshit.

[Ahem] Anyways. Athiest or Agnostic? I consider myself an agnostic apathiest. Quite simply, I don't know if there's a god but, more importantly, I couldn't give less of a fuck if there is. If it exist, it's just gonna keep doing what it's been doing without my input. Believing in god isn't going to make me a better person either — I was probably less inclined towards charity and volunteer work when I was in the Church than when I left it. Put simply, god doesn't really seem to give a shit, my believing in god doesn't seem to do anymore good that not believing in it, and not caring very much about what I believe in and whether or not my faith makes any sense in the grand scheme of things frees my brain up for more helpful things.

If god wants me to worship it, it's perfectly welcome to knock on my door and go, "Hey, Sparky. Just wanted to know it'd be really helpful if you started believing in my existence. Just an FYI," but I have yet to get that memo.

edited 14th Jun '11 2:36:30 PM by Sparkysharps

Agnosticism isn't the middle position—technically speaking there is none (apart from the 50:50 guys). *

If you believe in God, you believe in God; but if you either don't-believe-God-exists or believe-God-doesn't-exist, that still falls under the lacks-belief-in-God category, which is atheistic by definition.

Agnosticism does not mean taking the God question at a 50:50 probability rate. Even Richard Dawkins implied he is technically one, and Bertrand Russell even spelled it out loud that he identifies as one to fellow thinkers.

edited 14th Jun '11 8:51:20 PM by Catalogue

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.

“Evidence” is a pretty loaded term most the time when it comes up in this case, with people generally meaning “empirical evidence”.

When someone considers the logical attacks on theism and materialism, and potentially, other elements that science can’t yet explain, it’s not too hard to see why agnosticism could be considered a “logical middle ground” until more evidence presents itself.

edited 14th Jun '11 10:53:07 PM by Justice4243

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15 FimFiction account.

Atheist at heart, but Agnostic supporter. I think that objectively, Agnoticism is "more correct" way to view the world, but our behavior should be Atheist-like until evidence shows otherwise.

"Here to welcome our new golden-eyed overlords," said Addy promptly.

Atheism and agnosticism aren't mutually contradictory, as has been pointed out. Agnosticism/certainty are about what you know, and atheism/theism are about what you believe.

"War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left." "Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future."

Because “atheism as a default” keeps coming up, I think it’s worth linking the null hypothesis for a better understanding of the logic behind this.

edited 15th Jun '11 5:58:19 PM by Justice4243

Justice is a joy to the godly, but it terrifies evildoers.Proverbs21:15 FimFiction account.

Agnostic. Whatever atheist arguments you're thinking of, chances are I either don't believe them, or I've examined them, found them wanting, and rejected them.

I'm far from agnostic in principle, however. I'm getting closer to a properly founded position all the time... I think.

edited 30th Jun '11 1:25:52 PM by Arthur

Agnostic! I believe their is a God! Just not any specific version or religion of God! My parents believe I am a Latter Day Saint like them but (hee hee) just because I go to church doesn't mean I believe all the things they say. I just believe that no one knows God except God himself thus...

Lets get this party started!

Then you are not agnostic...

If any question why we died/ Tell them, because our fathers lied -Rudyard Kipling

Well, you're an agnostic theist, not an agnostic apatheist. Unless you not only believe there is a god, but know there is one.

"War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left." "Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future."

Yeah, thats an agnostic theist. I'm just plain agnostic; I don't claim to know one way or the other, and I don't believe its my place to speculate. If there's a God up there, I hope I do right by his creations; I could care less about him if that isn't good enough. If there isn't, then my only concern is myself and my fellow humans.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

Yeah, when most people think of agnosticism, they only think of the "don't know, don't care" version, but technically, everyone who isn't a Type 1 theist or Type 7 atheist is agnostic, which is a good majority of people.

edited 1st Jul '11 2:09:36 PM by OnTheOtherHandle

"War doesn't prove who's right, only who's left." "Every saint has a past, every sinner has a future."