Imagine a world in Total War... Isn't that Ultimate Bliss?

That doesn't really make it epic or heroic either. That's about the same as a soul crushing office job.

I thought they were soul-crushing because they were boring and unchallenging and alienating and repetitive? Math can drive you crazy for inherent reasons (that is, the concepts are pretty brutal things to get into your head) and because of how much mental effort it takes and how brutally competitive the field is. Engineering is only slightly less so.

And I do think the jobs of lawyers and doctors and jourhnalists is freaking epic. They make it boring by emotionally removing themsleves from their tasks, but it's challenging, complex shit, that requires both instant wit and raw, slow, intelligence horsepower. Lawyering especially, do you know how many rules those guys have to play with? Life is a massive tournament of Magic The Gathering for them!

edited 14th Mar '11 9:42:39 AM by Ardiente

I wouldn't call any task inherently epic. Impressive and requiring a lot of skill yes, but not epic. The thing that will make a task epic is the reasons behind why a person did it. People make things epic, not the other way around.

Like, with background music and zooming cameras (and a POTATO CHIP and voicing by DAN GREEN)

No. If I wanted to use a trope to describe what I was talking about, I would have done so myself. I mean that things are epic and important because of the people who do them, not because the storyboard decided to have some fun with a scene.

If I didn't dislike your views on... More serious subjects Ardiente, I would have come and made a GIANT rant about how your point is right. For the moment, I'm going to just say:

Ardiente is right. Just because you find conflict more badass, doesn't mean that intellectually, you can't be epic or heroic. I would have expected more wisdom from TV Tropes.

Huh. I would have expected a little less passive aggressive drek from somebody expecting to be taken seriously.

I won't argue that solving a math problem could be epic to someone in that field, but to everyone outside of it, it's just a pen moving. War on the other hand is something everyone can understand. Charging a machine gun nest by yourself to save your friends is something everyone can understand and find epic.

Another thing to consider is what's at stake. When studying or practicing equations, worst case scenario is you don't learn anything new or get a wrong answer.

And? There is epic Music, no one's life is at stake.

I am Passive Agressive, yeah. If you don't consider it serious, oh well. If you are gonna shitpost instead of contributing to the main Thread, that has gotten derailed, then you can leave.

^^

I agree, pretty much this.

I guess epic is different to everyone, for me something serious and irreplaceable has to be at stake, but at the same time not always. I guess there isn't a stringent standard for what I consider epic, those sorts of things just kind of jump out at me.

Y'all need to define what you mean by epic, or use another word. It looks like everyone's definition is different. Barkey's given his definition, which is different from Ardiente's (which seems to be characterized by a flow state).

edited 14th Mar '11 2:09:26 PM by ChristopherAlgoo

Why bother? This will probably be thumped if we don't get back to the main topic shortly.

My God what a beautiful concept! THANK YOU for finding it out. Man, I love it when humans name stuff. Naming something is the first step to understanding itm which is half the way into mastering it.  ^*

I feel wonderful when I experiment that while studying. Or picking up ladies. That state of mind where the ego disappears and the only thing that matters is doing what you're doing, and doing it right.

So, you could say that Total War would put the world in a state of Total Flow, which, in a way, could count as Total Bliss. However, maintaining Flow constantly for long intervals has its drawbacks, and can break you. I suggest Enders Game for a nice example of how it can feel.

edited 14th Mar '11 2:22:45 PM by Ardiente

That was my point exactly, Ardiente. Somewhat like a Total Flow.

...Why do so many people ask me to check Ender'sGame?

I assume it could break... But nothing lasts forever.

No. It's not the flow that breaks. Then you just need to pick it up again. That's easy, you just need to trigger the right circumstances. It's you who breaks. Then you need to pick yourself up. And that's a whole 'nother story.

Derail?

They say war is a continuation of politics by others means. When diplomacy fails to resolve an issue, you settle it with force.

But when we start talking about the "artistry" of war, I start to suspect some of you guys are delusional.

What makes you think war changes anything about the human psyche or unlocks its potential? It's an expression of masculine pride, true, but what's the deeper meaning of it? It drags on and on, perpetuates a cycle of death until both sides get weary of it, and then we return to peace like awakening from a fever.

edited 14th Mar '11 6:09:24 PM by johnnyfog

Even I think you're not giving due credit.

There is an artistry to war in a way, in that there's a beautiful and terrible sense of purpose for those professionally involved. But this doesn't even have to just be war, just the preparations carry the same feeling. It's like the therapeutic effect of cleaning my gun while I was deployed, that was my quiet time, where I gathered my thoughts while I mindlessly cleaned my weapon to make it spotless, it felt like painting a priceless work of art that wasn't finished until you couldn't find a single grain of carbon, dirt, or grit anywhere in it. But I don't need a war to do that, and that same sort of feeling doesn't apply to civilians the way it does to soldiers.

To be frank, war sucks for everybody. It really sucks for civilians, because they almost always weren't expecting or prepared for it. At least with a soldier their mind is in tune for something like that, I can find no scenario where war is some great thing for a civvie, and even for most soldiers it rarely is. It doesn't unlock potential in the way that you guys are talking about, but it fundamentally changes people in a myriad of different ways, sometimes it's positive, and sometimes it's negative. On the one hand, you have people forever changed by severe PTSD, they come back different people than when they left. On the other hand, being through such an ordeal makes you thankful for what you have. I know when I came back from Afghan my home felt alien to me, where some of the worst problems Americans have during their daily life seem like the most petty and inconsequential things by comparison.

edited 14th Mar '11 6:19:32 PM by Barkey

^^ What do you mean 'even I'? We never agree on anything. Besides which, you were preaching about some new age-y self-actualization that can be found in war, without giving a citation.

Rosseau believed, paradoxically, that man's only redemption can be found in war. His reasons weren't convincing, either.

edited 14th Mar '11 6:19:54 PM by johnnyfog

^

You can't cite sources for your own opinion, and seeing as the psychological effects of war are different for everybody, it's still a valid opinion. People come back worse, unchanged, and better off from war, it's all a case by case thing.

Is this statisticked?

Case by case, yes. One of the variables is being in a position where you can actually survive an all-out war, like a military commander or wealthy inhabitant of a first-world nation. A farming community couldn't find much satisfaction in it.

Which is why I said what I said. Regardless of the war, being a civilian in a warzone sucks ass, it's horrible. I guess I should have clarified that my statement about how people change in every direction applies to soldiers, not to civilians.

Civilians tend to either be the ones trying their best to survive in horrible conditions, or they are people distanced enough from it via social circumstance that they can sit back from a distance and think "Jolly good show, we sure routed those bastards good, our noble spirit prevails!" in some bullshit Napoleanic War fashion. I can't take any civilian seriously who likes war, and I can only have sympathy for civilians who have to endure war.