What's so bad about immigration?

Not illegal immigration, obviously that's a problem. Thing is, any given immigrant is legal or illegal based on circumstance. Outlaw all immigration and suddenly every immigrant is a criminal.

But with lax immigration laws, more people can enter the country through the official routes rather than illegally. In return, they get the protection and benefits of being a U.S. citizen, and contribute taxes which we so desperately need right now.

Aside from hesitation to let in a bunch of foreign fugitives (in which case, just re-route all border patrol resources to cross-checking applicants through INTERPOL or something) what are the downsides to making immigration more lawful?

I'm for legal immigration. If you want in and can fill out some forms and some other resonable requirements, then I see no reason why you should be denied entry or citizenship. Toss in some free English classes and cultural help too, just in case they're from a paticularly backwater location (and don't know about certain customs and stuff).

Hell, that's how the country essentially formed. Now that we've made it, we turn back people worse off than ourselves?

The immigration controversy is a worldwide situation, not just a US-centric one, and it is rooted in tribalism.

It is a pragmatic effort to buffer the nasty effects of NAFTA, globalization, famine and war and form the basis for "fortress nations". Rising transportation costs, immigration restrictions, and the Mexico border wall are all part of it: Preemptive measures to contain mass migration that we anticipate getting worse.

Granted, Strawman Has a Point when it comes the plight of the U.S., but it's not as though migrant workers get paid a living wage, anyway. Striking out at them is short-sighted, particularly since they wouldn't be crossing the border in droves if we hadn't reduced Mexico to a toxic soup ruled by cartels. Moreover, it's mostly propaganda designed to shift focus away from real issues.

edited 10th Mar '11 9:44:16 AM by johnnyfog

^

I'm all for a fortress nation, but at the same time we shouldn't be going after illegals, we should be looking at our methods, and the reasons that they come over here illegally.

In other words, hit the employers where it hurts, hard. If there are fewer job opportunities for them, they won't come in greater numbers.

Kind of raw on this subject right now, my friend got her car totaled by an illegal without insurance, guy was apparently being a real douche to her. She's trying to take him to court over damages to the nerve endings in her shoulder but it's proving difficult, and it might jeopardize her career in the military on medical grounds.

I have very limited understanding of this topic (so no changes there then for me generally.)

Immigration is fine if they are going into a means of supporting themselves. Now generally I'd be tempted to say that where manpower goes, business and jobs follow. But there has to be demand for what those jobs provide. There are entire regions of Glasgow that have had entire neighbourhoods out or mostly out of work.

Immigration should be targeted towards letting people in to areas where they are liable to be able to contribute. And its true a lot of immigrants will do jobs natives of 1st world countries won't touch with a bargepole, because we've become so culturally lazy that hard work and hardship comes as a genuine shock to a large portion of our population.

Besides, given the corruption and inefficiencies at the highest levels that manage our society... frankly immigrants aren't our biggest issue, in Britain or America.

Now that I've said it, feel free to tear it apart gleefully.

...no seriously, half of what I said there is probably ignorant crap. Tearing it down is the only way I'll learn.

Yeah, there's that - those who just want to sham the system and crap, but you get that with full-blown citizens as well.

So there needs to be a way to ensure that those who want to play nice and be part of the American Dream can do so, but we can keep the bad apples out, somehow.

^^ No, it's because employers don't want to pay what would be needed for people to get what they expect in terms of living standards. Now, said standards might be too high. But that's an entirely different argument. (And quite frankly, one that nobody really wants to have)

But by and large Game, I think you're right. Immigration is great for a growing society that needs labor in order to do stuff. For a post-growth society that is moving towards ways to do stuff without so much labor, it's an entirely different story. I'm not anti-immigration at all, as I think it's good for a society at large. I just think that economies need to adapt to new economic realities, that's all.

Here in norway the situation is simple:
1. The immigrants we had back in the 70s where quite good, learned proper Norwegian, a bit alien, but they got integrated in our society.
2. At some point we got quite a bit of immigrants, and because nobody regulated the marked for houses and apartments we discovered that they had made themselves a ghetto in the part of our capital where there was cheap houses
3. Said immigrants now had a ghetto, and stopped to adapt, the second generation from them basically stagnated completely and become aliens living a parallel society still under the reign of Norwegian law.
4. And there are coming more of them, they are moving into said Ghetto, creating even more of an isolation. The crime rate down there is higher, the men are more likely to rape, etc.....
And now we hate the guts out of all immigrants just because we did not ensure that they defaulted to moving together in 1 spot and deny they had immigrated.
The problem is not "multi culture" it is "parallel culture", basically when you have multiple cultures they blend in a way, and that is good, but the current situation is more or less unbearable.

And people wonder why radical hate mongers are becoming more popular? Really?

edited 10th Mar '11 11:42:29 AM by del_diablo

If they're essentially forced into the ghetto, is it really their fault at all they're staying ghetto?

The cheap housing thing may have factored into that, plus, people will tend to seek that which is familiar. You got a bunch of folks that talk like you, dress like you and shre many of the same cultural traits, chances are, you'll want to live among them.

So I'm not sure if it was forced, more like unknowingly encouraged.

edited 10th Mar '11 11:55:59 AM by pvtnum11

For the illegal immigration problem in the USA, the best bet is to alleviate the economic conditions in Mexico through cooperation. So long as Mexico is substantially worse than USA but a bordering country, you'll have a problem.

Secondly, you'll want to have a points-based system for immigration. I think that the government has begun trying that but it doesn't seem like they gave it much effort. A large part of immigration in america is still family-based, which is not economically useful. You want targetted immigration of skilled people (typically university educated).

Third, lax immigration laws aren't as problematic as you think. If you cannot stop the flow of immigrants into America, I wouldn't make them illegal as a solution. The punitive measure isn't some kind of bleeding heart liberal policy. It has economic costs. It is better to have documented regulation of the people so that they pay taxes and have increased wages, thereby counteracting any reason to hire them in the first place. Then your policing turns into punishing employers for unsafe work conditions or underpaying people below minimum wage. That's billions of dollars cheaper, saves you tax money on the policing and fortress wall building and also gets you increased tax revenues. Let me make it clear: If you made it completely free to get into America (but not become a citizen, you're just an insta-visa worker) the difference is that you get more tax money and happier people because America is basically filled as it is with illegals. You won't get more people coming in, everyone is already in America.

I agree in helping Mexico out. If their standard of living comes up and the amount of corruption and drug violence drops, less would desire to leave.

Clearly, we should annex Mexico and that will fix everything.

EDIT to fix my crappy grammar and spelling

edited 10th Mar '11 11:58:58 AM by pvtnum11

Mexico and illegal immigration is a whole 'nother can of worms, let's just try to stick to immigration.

There's not really a problem with ghettos per say, a strong cultural identity can really improve a neighborhood. The problem is when it halts assimilation or actively discourages it.

I thought ghettos by definition segregated populations and prevented assimilation?

Savage Heathen: Both. Basically you had the situation where you had a area with apartment prices quite far below other areas, and then the immigrants started to move in because the quality of the apartments was not total shit. Which is fine.
Then more moved in, because it was the cheap area, then more, then more, then more, and then we finally had a ghetto after some point.
After the ghetto was finally created, move immigrants moved there because well it already had their culture.
They where not "forced", but the circumstances surrounding the marked skewered them towards it. Just adding in a regulation to create a spread on the settling would made sure the ghetto never appared.

People from same country moving together? I doubt it, the only thing they have in common is that they are from a place where they spoke the same language and had the same culture. People who knew each other on the other hand and had a friendly conversation before could move to the same area i guess.

We haven't mentioned the "multiculturalism is evil" fad that's been festering for a while now.

Mostly in the US, but also in Europe. There is this paranoia that other cultures are out-breeding the Caucasians, or trying to assimilate us.

We have enclaves of different cultures all over. Ashkenazi jews, for one. Here in Brooklyn, they grumble about the annual gay parade, and hand out pamphlets (especially if you look ambiguously jewish like me). But no problems ever arise from their cultural 'insulation', for lack of a better word.

edited 10th Mar '11 12:12:41 PM by johnnyfog

Multiculturalism is fine, as long as the different cultures have absolutely no reason to come to loggerheads with each other.

...problem is you always get hardliners and extremists who will insist on making matters a you and us thing.

Culture wars are a smokescreen, the real problem with immigration is economic. johnnyfog's “fortress nation” comment is illustrative of the bad memes being spewed by trade liberalists, the idea that we should open ourselves up for full two-way trade and migration between every country on the planet as equals. What this ignores is of course that first and third world nations aren't equal at all, and unrestricted interaction between unequal entities causes abuse on both sides.

Immigration from the third to first world causes a race to the bottom in the first world, while the meager flow of money it produces is just enough to perpetuate the third world's dysfunctionality without actually giving their people enough power to fix anything. Similarly, laissez-faire abolition of tariffs and import standards drives a race to the bottom in the third world, importing our slavery and unsustainable exploitation to them, while addicting the first world to goods and services that would be impossible in our legal and moral sphere.

All of this is backed up by casting anyone willing to acknowledge this as a racist bigot. Fixing the third world is important, but lowering our standards to allow an unchecked torrent of cheap labor and goods to flood our economy is hardly a necessary part of that.

In fact, destroying the first world, historical aberration that it is in millennia of feudalism, is probably the most important step in ensuring the third world never gets better.

edited 11th Mar '11 12:12:29 PM by EricDVH

To directly answer the title: Nothing.

It's just a lot of people don't want to see the change it will bring to their culture and prefer a static rather than dynamic society.

What's important is to make a legal process that

I love how the INS will spend time hunting down people who've over stayed their student visas. Not as much as they do to the more hot-button Hispanics, fortunately, but it still seems incredibly stupid to me. They've come here, learned at our schools, and now we're forcing them to go home instead of getting the oppurtunity to contribute here?

That's some logic for ya.

"Dynamic" often means "more violent" and "static" "orderly".

I like immigrants whose cultures are orderly and enrich the host society. Of course, saying that gets you in trouble with those who enforce the Testimony of Equality.

If you're an American, looking down on Mexico for being disorderly is like being pissed at someone for stabbing you if you give them a knife and then punch them in the face till their nose breaks. Mexico will have crime problems that in turn drive immigration as long as America keeps funding its crime.

I think at the very least, the US should allow anyone who graduates from an American university to get residency, subject to some security checks and the like. These are people who've liked America enough to come here for an education, have lived in the US for 4 or so years and STILL want to be here, and who are likely to be productive members of society, paying taxes and the like.

In a globalized world, these people will still be competitors to US-based workers no matter where they are. Surely it's better for them to be paying taxes in the US?

@Karkadinn: Indeed, though drug cartels are only the tip of the horrifyingly abusive iceberg that constitutes problems inflicted on Mexico by our policy.

@Morven: Exactly. A technician or a college graduate will compete with US workers whether AT the US or outside of it. It's better for American workers in the long run to have them competing for American wages than doing a qualified job elsewhere for less money.

If the graduate/technical jobs move overseas, Americans as a whole are pretty much screwed.

edited 11th Mar '11 2:02:47 PM by SavageHeathen

The US mexico issue is complex. And by complex I mean that huge portion of the problems that plague mexico stem from drug violence and a complete failure of law and order. A problem that can be traced neatly back to the US drug policy. Drugs come here, money goes to mexico, money flows back, guns flow to mexico. Murder and lawlessness come home. Mexicans come over the border.

Trying to keep immigrants out is a losing game. We have been selling the american dream to the world for a century now. We are fueled economically and socially by repeated waves of immigrants. We are doing ourselves more harm by trying to prevent the immigration than if we simply rolled with the blows.

To quote Frank Zappa out of context our immigration policy is like treating dandruff with decapitation.