Spice and Wolf Discussion

I mean, seriously, you could have gotten those papers to Lawrence some other way and remove Col and you would have lost literally nothing from this chapter. He doesn't add any new insight or interesting character development. Sure, we see Holo act in ways we technically haven't before but, come on, this is Holo.

I don't understand how a series that has so many interesting side characters can make a main character that's, so far, really uninteresting.

I like Co, myself, but the author really needed to decide whether he wanted to make Col their adopted son or a (potential) romantic rival for Lawrence. Then again, I feel like the voice acting and animation for the anime adds a lot of nuance and feeling to the story that the books (and especially in translation) just don't have.

Is Col treated as a potential romantic rival? So far, Holo's acting more motherly towards him than anything else.

There are a few bits where Holo intimates (mostly teasingly) that if Lawrence doesn't want to continue traveling with her or disappoints her, she can always just wait until Col is an adult and then travel with him instead.

Which would just show her to be more fickle than she's been shown to be. With the relationship they have, she can go pretty far beyond just teasing (which she loves to do) without entering the potential for a break-up.

Oh, that's all?

Really, Holo and Lawrence's relationship became even more interesting after Lawrence's confession. Normally, such a thing would either trigger a Relationship Upgrade or create a strain but this one did neither. It's quite clear to the reader what Holo's feelings are and I honestly wouldn't be remotely surprised if Lawrence was fully aware of what Holo's answer would be if confronted (given that the reader doesn't really have access to information that Lawrence doesn't). It's probably why Lawrence doesn't get frustrated that Holo keeps bringing his confession up when you'd think he would be.

At first, I was afraid that the more detailed explanations that Lawrence is giving to Col would ruin some of the fun (since, for me, part of the fun is trying to keep up with Lawrence and Holo) but now I just realized that 95% of the fun was trying to keep up with all of the byplay in their relationship and he's never going to explain that.

Yeah, that's taking her teasing a bit too seriously than it warrants. The kid has a slight crush on her, and I think it's more to tease them both than it is a proposal. They've been through too much for that to be a possibility.

I like that they don't quite say it. It would feel gratuitous in other series, but their dynamic is so well established they don't have to say it. They're companions and friends that just so happen to love each other, and it's nice to see the "I love you" cliche isn't getting in the way of the interplay, which is what people like about relationships to begin with.

TLDR: Shipping Bed Death is averted.

That's true. That said, though, I've gone on record saying that either the translator isn't very good at translating banter, or the voice acting just gives it something more that keeps it from getting old.

I feel like as the novels progressed, Holo's messing with Lawrence started to come to close to emotional manipulation though. Perhaps I'm just not appreciating her sense of humour enough, but sometimes she seems to be going rather overboard.

Though perhaps as was mentioned earlier, it's just that Holo does let her emotions get the better of her at times.

So the instant Col left the scene and we were just with Lawrence and Holo, the book became roughly 500x more enjoyable. Lawrence talking about the places he'd been, fantasizing about walking the path of gold with Holo, their playful back and forth; it's all insanely enjoyable. And then Col's going to come back and I'll be waiting for him to leave again. Fuck.

So I finished reading "Town of Strife." I have to say that basically all of the business stuff in Part 2 went completely over my head and I was mostly just reading it to get to the next bit with Holo and Lawrence (Part 2 had some fantastic scenes for them, by the way). It was certainly... interesting, I suppose. The cliffhanger it ends on is extremely evil, though, since my library doesn't have the next volume available.

Which volume number is that again?

Town of Strife is 8 and 9.

That's the narwhal plot, yeah.

Oh my god, the narwhal plot. Probably it was a limitation of the translation I read, but I couldn't make sense of the main economic plot in that arc at all.

It was still pretty captivating, though.

It was more political than economic as i recall, with the Narwhal as a symbol of power and bargaining chip in the debate over the different town sections' autonomy and Fleur as an unwilling pawn used for her knowledge and connections due to the trade war screwing with her ill-gotten fur shipment. Lawrence decides to meddle because a) Fleur and b) He's basically addicted to this sort of happenstance and can't not meddle.

Just going off memory, i think that's about it.

Actually, he was going to GTFO until Holo stopped him. I understood the gist of the plot but I was mostly lost in the details.

So, to those of you who've read ahead, does Holo change her mind about parting ways at some point or something? After the next volume settles the matter of the wolf bones (which it should), I don't see why they wouldn't head straight for their previous destination.

The next arc is mainly about sheep.

Im back, how's everyone? its been a few months since i've last read this forum, glad its still active.

I have a question for those who have read ahead, or even finished the series. Does Horo's attitude and behaviour from Vol.4 and Vol.6 onward change? If yes, when does it happen? I'm currently reading Vol.6.

Up until volume 4, everything has been fantastic. Well, there are a few remarks I could make here and there, but for the most part I absolutely loved them. It was hard for me to stop reading!

Horo had been one of my favourite characters of all time even from the times I watched the anime years ago. Of course, Lawrence is up there with her. Unfortunately, after Vol.4 ^note though Vol.5 was enjoyable to read it's very hard for me to like Horo. ^note In the novels that is. I can still love anime-Horo and headcanon my own version of how the story continues.

Their conversations are no longer just fun teasing. Horo's traps aren't playful and entertaining anymore. Horo has been downright mean, somewhat manipulative and borderline abusive on a few occasions.

It's painful to read through some parts of the story. Horo goes too far and she knows it, but chooses to do so anyway. She complains a lot about Lawrence being too soft-hearted, yet she still manipulates and traps him in order to have him do what she wants. I really could not stand the way she practically manipulated him to take Col as an apprentice, even though he did express that he feels it's too early to have one.

I understand there has to be some sort of friction between characters from time to time in order to spice things up. I also understand the importance of character development and change leading up to said character becoming a better person. ^note Or a villain, but that is not the case here. The ending of Spice & Wolf has been spoiled to me a long time ago.

Maybe Horo does improve, and that is what I want to know, as well as how long it takes for her to be a more pleasant character again. If she keeps this up for too long, I might end up dropping the series. I really don't want to do that, but I also can't have myself read through several volumes of content I won't enjoy just so I can enjoy the last part of the story. ^note  Not to mention her punches and stomps-on-the-foot have turned into biting Lawrence to the point he bleeds (not a lot, but still) or pressing him on the ground to the point he thought his rib cage would break. The hell was that?

edited 5th Jan '16 4:35:13 AM by KrisiChiki

Okay, first thing's first: Her name's Holo. I don't care what subbers tell you.

I thought Volume 6 was actually really good after the first chapter. It includes a lot of moments of Holo and Lawrence being an adorable couple to the point that a lot of other characters think they're married. Their time on the boat where Lawrence was recounting his journeys up to the point where he met Holo was particularly sweet.

As for Holo manipulating Lawrence to apprentice Col, I wouldn't really say that. Lawrence was constantly second-guessing himself towards the end and Col basically make them take him along anyway. Also, Col isn't his apprentice and he was coming along specifically to find out about the wolf bones. While Col learns a lot from Lawrence, he's still not his apprentice. Besides, Lawrence doesn't once regret taking him along that I've read (I've only read up to Volume 9). Also, the big reason why Holo wanted Col to come was that she knew that her journey with Lawrence was ending soon and she didn't want to leave him alone.

As for Holo's teasing of Lawrence, she only does it for his own good. If she didn't care about him, she'd just act like some regular town girl like she does for basically everyone else. She's trying to sharpen his mind and weed out his weaknesses in order to make him a better, stronger person (most of the time, at any rate). She only does something especially harsh when he really messes up. She gets harder on him as their journey nears its conclusion for two reasons: The first is that she wants to make sure he has the best standing he possibly can have when she leaves him so that he has a better chance of having a happy life. The second is that she loves him and wants him to be a better mate (although she will never say this). The Lawrence you see as early as Volume 3 is very different from the one in Volume 1 or 2. The friend of Lawrence's from Volume 3 states as much since Lawrence actually considers him a friend rather than just another business associate.

As for Volumes 8 and 9, Holo does calm down somewhat. There is one instance where Holo forces Lawrence to do something he doesn't want to but, a couple scenes later, we find out that she deeply regrets doing that but Lawrence is glad she did. There are several really great moments between the two like one where they're just sitting at a table in their room and they just entwine their pinkies (I think) while the narration states that they know they shouldn't become any closer than they already are but can't help it. There is one scene early on where, if memory serves, Holo acts somewhat seductively and Lawrence makes to kiss her only for someone to walk in on them (and she knew they would at that exact time). However, we see later on that she seems perfectly fine with the prospect and she also genuinely wanted Lawrence to wash her back in another scene and was rather upset when he didn't.

Do be warned, however, the Volumes 8 and 9 focus primarily on the economics stuff and that what happens in Volume 9 in that regards can be very confusing.

Three points I'd like to chime in on; I've also finished Volume 9, and agree that the economics really do take a front seat for the Town of Strife arc (well, less economics and more two-steps-ahead backroom plotting and dealing). The first is translation; I'm not sure which version you're reading, so I'll assume the official release because that's what I have. The translator does a decent job, but I did get the feeling while I was reading the earlier volumes that he wasn't doing as good a job with the banter between Lawrence and Holo as he could have. Word choice and phrasing is very important with teasing banter like that, and a certain word choice can be the difference between a scene reading as teasing or rude.

Point 2 is delivery. I'm assuming you watched the anime? If you have, you're used to the way the characters speak and look at each other when they're teasing, and indicators of that aren't often present in the books. In animated form, we might see Holo pouting theatrically on her side of the cart, but the book might only mention her tail swishing angrily, and so forth. It's not always the case, but when I was reading I saw that disconnect more than once. Also, as always, Fukuyama Jun and Koshimizu Ami really breathe life into the characters. Part of the reason I liked the anime so much was because of the way those two work together.

Lastly, there's intent. Like Zelenal said, even at this point, more than halfway through the series, Holo and Lawrence are still trying to convince themselves that they shouldn't stay together or get too comfortable with each other's presence. Even if they don't part ways in Yoitz, Lawrence isn't immortal, after all, and he's not the first human Holo's loved and then lost.

edited 5th Jan '16 10:06:29 AM by RedSavant

Thank you both for the input. That gives me a lot of insight to understand Holo's behaviour better.

This makes me think the delivery/execution of the whole deal might be at fault then. Granted, we only ever know as much as Lawrence does, so it makes sense. It's still a bit annoying to read, as I feel like some things could have been done differently, but it is what it is. I will probably just take breaks from reading it.

I do have to disagree on a few points, but that is just my own interpretation/opinion and I won't dwell into it.

I won't argue over her name, I will use Holo then. Though, I much prefer the sound of Horo and I unconsciously read it that way even in the novels. Speaking of which, I am reading the Yen Press ones.

I agree the anime and voice acting adds a lot to their conversations. On the other hand, the novels give us a lot of details about various things that aren't present in the anime. Each medium has its advantages. Having those few volumes adapted into the anime gave us the best of both worlds! I did go back to watch certain scenes after encountering them in the novels.

edited 5th Jan '16 4:38:08 PM by KrisiChiki

I'm inclined to agree with you that after a certain point, Holo's teasing crosses the line at some points. I have a thing against emotionally manipulative/abusive behavior in general, so I may be biased.

So a few days ago a Spice And Wolf Sequel novel was announced to come out 4-9-16 in Japan. Due to the 10 year anniversary of the series (2-10-16), a lot of the fans and myself are sharing this theory, while its not a Season 3 announcement, hopefully this sequel will make the series current again, drawing in new fans and old fans who will likely rewatch the anime and buy the dvds and novels. While this gives Isuna more money, it also shows how many people still like the series and that it can support a few more seasons, hope for the best guys(: