Is religion simply indoctrination/brainwashing?

@Usht: There's still the idea that you need to conform to a certain standard (one set by humans but presented as "divine truth") to achieve any form of "enlightenment". I'll agree that the faiths you listed as examples are less fascist than some others, but the central idea is still the same; you must conform, or you will suffer.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

I'll concede that point but then that brings up something else, wouldn't that just mean that government is doing the same thing (albeit on a less than cosmic scale)? After all, if the government decides that owning a gun is illegal, you have to cooperate or risk punishment. Even democracy has this, the minority must conform to what the majority says, which means all governments, to a lesser or greater extent, are fascist. And government profits from a nation of followers.

Therefore, unless you feel like being Savage Heathen and go all out anarchist, you're falling into the same trap of society.

EDIT: On the side, I'd like to mention, this is why I don't think fascism even has a definition anymore.

edited 8th Mar '11 11:49:23 PM by Usht

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

@Usht: I'll grant you that, but remember; the law doesn't tell me how to feel or what to think, only how to behave. My thoughts are still my own.

edited 8th Mar '11 11:48:51 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

The law might not, but culture does. That's why people feel guilty about just thinking about things.

Unrelated to that, Mircea Eliade analyzed Marxism as a rapturous religion. I thought that was interesting.

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@Tzetze:

I consider culture just as fascist.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

You can't consider anything fascist if you don't have a cultural viewpoint with which to judge fascism. You may as well stab your shadow.

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Drunk:...This is one of the times I'm encountering viewpoints so alien and weird I'm not sure just what to say in reply, because my brain kinda broke trying to rationlize that statement.

"Who wants to hear about good stuff when the bottom of the abyss of human failure that you know doesn't exist is so much greater?"-Wraith

@53

Well see, that's the thing, religion is a mix of philosophy and community. While governments are mostly communities (with some shared but optional philosophy), religion adds in ideas about how one should act in life. Philosophies do much the same, except with no actual laws and just you guiding yourself based on those beliefs that you take away from that philosophy.

Either way, people will learn both laws and philosophies growing up. If teaching them religion is brainwashing them but teaching them the laws of society isn't, then teaching them any sort of philosophy must be a form of brainwashing, something that I'm pretty sure most of you won't agree with.

Anyway, calling it quits for tonight. Don't expect anything more from me for several hours.

edited 8th Mar '11 11:56:34 PM by Usht

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

Can people not see the difference between placing a thing on a table free to take and cramming that same thing down someone's throat?

@Chagen: fair enough. I feel the same way about 99% of the stuff you post.

edited 8th Mar '11 11:58:41 PM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

Well, most relgions don't seem to me to be cramming things down people's throats. If they are, they're doing it wrong.

Perhaps it's more like putting something on a table, and hinting really, really hard that it would be nice if you picked it up.

Be not afraid...

The metaphor doesn't really work; at the time people are «indoctrinated» with culture or a religion, they don't have any way to judge it as good or bda.

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@Loni: I guess we have differing experiences as far as religion goes. My throat always felt pretty crammed in the presence of God's groupies.

@Tze: that's exactly why I think organized religion is fundamentally unhealthy, for all it's positive points.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

@Tzetze: Yes, but with the culture I'm living in, it's considered acceptable to deviate from what you're taught. Being a rebellious teenager is practically a rite of passage. Religion on the other hand, deals out all sorts of dire warnings if you don't do things precisely the way they want. Not only that, but it's considered perfectly fine to do whatever it takes to convert people or keep people from straying from the path.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

I think you guys have just met the wrong sort of religious people. My folks didn't even do any hinting, really.

Be not afraid...

That's not religion in general, though.

I don't understand what else there is to do.

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@Loni: I have no problem with those who want to be faithful of their own volition. I just very much dislike getting beaten half to death because an old book told my father that the best way to raise me was by the rod. Nor do I see any good coming out of a philosophy that dictates that women be kept as housewives and nothing more, to be used and abused at will.

I could go on.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

@DG: ...but you probably shouldn't, honey.

@Tzetze: seek the truth on your own.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

But they'd have no basis to do so with. Even something like «knowledge is good, seek it out» is cultural.

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Drunk:Because that clearly wasn't influenced by the contemporary opinions of the time it was written.

How do we know that God really wanted all that sexist stuff in? The Bible is a book written by humans—when they were writing it, how do we know that a few of them didn't realize that they could push an agenda through it under the guise of it being the written word of God?

edited 9th Mar '11 12:24:53 AM by Chagen46

"Who wants to hear about good stuff when the bottom of the abyss of human failure that you know doesn't exist is so much greater?"-Wraith

She's not blaming the religious texts. She's blaming the entire concept of religion. Target any rebuttals accordingly.

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"Last I checked, an unexplainable abstract "being" was also a concept and a different method to reach a similar moral decision (don't steal because God laid that down as a law VS don't steal because it's not good for society and will end up with you as a criminal)."

What are you talking about? It's not how you come to the conclusion it's the very premise that is different.

Stealing is a concept. God is an abstract entity. You can't compare the two. There's a difference between saying "Stealing is wrong" (Regardless of WHY) and "There is a god"

My other signature is a Gundam.

@Chagen: Not sure what the point of that last post was. Elaborate, please; the two halves do not go together.

@Tze: ...Yes, and "don't bother seeking at all" is cultural. And a decision. One that any human should be free to make. Organized religion forces one to abdicate their ability to choose in favor of an established doctrine...one laid down by other humans, who are just as fallible and imperfect as the person being "converted".

It should be noted that "heretic" comes from the Latin hereticus (yes my spelling sucks), which means "one who chooses".

edited 9th Mar '11 12:30:10 AM by drunkscriblerian

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

Tzetze: She mentioned the philosophy...which came out of the religious texts.

^What I'm saying is that Girlfriend is implying that Christianity at it's core advocates things like sexism, while I believe that it was simply hijacked by opinions of that day and age.

edited 9th Mar '11 12:30:32 AM by Chagen46

"Who wants to hear about good stuff when the bottom of the abyss of human failure that you know doesn't exist is so much greater?"-Wraith

@Tzetze: Like I said, I don't mind if people are quietly faithful. I just don't like it when the rabid followers try to force it on me. Sadly, the ones that I dislike are the very, very vocal majority.

@Chagen: Have you read the bible?

edited 9th Mar '11 12:31:46 AM by DrunkGirlfriend

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

But they have no data to make that decision with. I may as well ask you to choose which is better, qtctshvm or rsdfasdt - you have just has much data for each, specifically, zero, so your decision is entirely arbitrary and not based in anything. It can't be based in anything, because you have nothing to base it on.

Your (and my) notions of freedom as basically a good thing are based on the views of those who raised us. We are inherently trapped by what they taught us. Does that mean that we give up our notions of freedom in the name of unshackling ourselves? No, that would be absurd. Even rejecting what you know is based on what you know - such as a Christian abandoning their religion because they don't think it meshes with the notion of good behavior they learned in Sunday school. That's how it is; you can't get knowledge from a void, and so the beliefs of humans are necessarily culturally bound.

Now less pedantically I think that parents giving their kids freedom to think about things is a good thing  ^*

. But it's ridiculous to try to fight cultural influence to the extent you seem to want.

I meant that, for example, your criticism could apply equally well to a traditionalist Chinese farmer who doesn't give a shit about Jesus.

edited 9th Mar '11 12:39:38 AM by Tzetze

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