Busy Street/TGWTG debate thread.

Hello there, I'm a poster for Busy Street, the so-called "Anti-TGWTG" blog. And well, I have noticed it's had a rather...negative reputation here on TV Tropes, many of whom just attribute it as a hate site for TGWTG and its fans, and nothing more.

As both a troper and a poster on BS, I've been wanting to perhaps provide some clarity in the hopes of proving it's not just a site for trolls, and I thought, why not host a little conversation debate. Me as a "ambassador" for Busy Street, and some of the TGWTG fans here, in the hopes that both sides can reach a level of understanding.

I'm not here to troll, or intentionally provoke people's opinions. Just provide a debate for understanding. I just figured it may be best to hold a separate topic thread to host this debate instead of interrupting the discussion on the TGWTG thread.

Anyways, if anyone feels willing, ask away.

edited 24th Feb '11 3:29:39 PM by KoB

Right. You wait here, I'll get the junk food and party favours. ^_^ Despite your good intentions, I assure you there is no way this will end well.

Although I suppose it's better you crank at each other in here rather than disrupt the main thread.

Well, you have to understand we had a bad run-in with a member a while ago, which kind of biased us. But if you're willing to have a civil discussion, I'm sure we are too.

Thank you.

I have no intention of trying to change people's opinion on either site, but I do want there to be some form of debate between those who like Doug and Co's work, and those who don't, and hopefully keep it respectable.

I assume that member was Asalieri?

edited 24th Feb '11 2:02:45 PM by KoB

Yep, that was the person, good times.

Okay, I have a question: What does Busy Street blog about? The only entries I've seen revolve around reviewing reviewers -kinda weird, but is a free world- is just that or they cover other subjects?

@Dream I'm not going to say I rep either side but I did go on Busy Street and the Liquid Critic amused me. However the idea of it is to bash bad internet things. I believe a plan was going to be the Adult Baby phenomenon. Kind of like a news version of Encyclopedia Dramatica.

Does that description work? It was Asalieri that posted here. If I remember correctly he also MADE the busy street article saying we hate Busy Street.

edited 24th Feb '11 2:58:15 PM by Fusionman

The best way for Busy Street and its contributors to not get flamed is to ensure that Busy Street doesn't attack people who like Doug Walker or other Channel Awesome contributors just for being fans.

I do not know if any Busy Street articles have shown this Fan Hater attitude, but Asalieri's Youtube video that started this conflict sure did, equating the actions of one fan to all of them.

I'm not trying to defend the flaming idiots on TV Tropes' side, but I do want to note that what you reap is what you sow, and acting like a Fan Hater will easily cause people to have a similar reaction.

@Dream: I'm quite familiar with Asa's RAR series, on one hand, I think he raises some good points regarding the endless imitators of AVGN and Seanbaby across the net. On the other hand, he can be a bit overly harsh or exaggerating.

Fusionman kind of provided the answer, in that the site serves to mock or make fun of a lot of things regarding to internet culture, reviewers being one of the more primary examples. And not just TGWTG, but many other copycats or AVGN clones trying to emulate that style of comedy, the so-called "TGWTG rejects". Another they like to poke at is the concept of "Internet Popularity". They also have done the occasional movie or game review as well.

Keep in mind, I'm just a poster, not a member of the site's staff, so my answer may not be entirely accurate.

@Kerrah: On the tab for "What is B.S.", they specifically mention not to take everything they say so seriously. I don't think they hate TGWTG's fanbase entirely, in fact, several of the posters are fans of certain reviewers, the Cinema Snob, Phelous and Lord Kat in particular are among the more respected reviewers. I think their main issue in regards to fans is with TGWTG's own Fan Dumb, the people who will often shoot down anyone that dares criticize and giving NC the Reviews Are the Gospel treatment.

edited 24th Feb '11 5:06:24 PM by KoB

Problems with the fans eh? That actually makes me respect it less than when I thought it criticized TGWTG. Criticizing art has its benefits and there is a good reason to. Criticizing people...not so much.

I mean, what's the difference between that and say, I dunno, the twilight sucks forum, or something to that extent?

"I've been wanting to perhaps provide some clarity in the hopes of proving it's not just a site for trolls"

If it's not just a site for trolls, it's at the very least a site primarily for trolls, and I feel legitimately kind of sorry for anyone who thinks that site is anything else. The tactics of that site — print something inflammatory with or without justification (say, for example, accusing TGWTG of stealing donation money), crowing over every negative comment, dismissing every criticism of their criticism as Fan Dumb — I'm sorry, I'm not stupid, I know trolls when I see them. These are not the actions of people trying to make genuine comedy or provide useful commentary — if they have, it's entirely by accident, because their goal is pretty clearly to piss people off. The way they revel in every lousy mention on themselves on a TGWTG fan thread speaks to their true intentions — if they're not jerking off to this very comment right now and laughing "BAWWWW BUTTHURT", I will be surprised.

While we're at it, if they're going to take on as easy a target as bad comedy attempts on Youtube, they had better be a lot funnier. I really can't imagine these guys replacing Maddox or Seanbaby anytime soon.

edited 24th Feb '11 6:43:20 PM by MBI

After reading the front page of Busy Street, I have this to say: Why? It looks like an Encyclopedia Dramatica article, only less funny.

I have no problem with criticizing TGWG or any other internet reviewer, but it just seems spiteful and impotent and bitching for the sake of bitching.

edited 24th Feb '11 7:46:21 PM by Scardoll

Well, to counter, I should list my own issues with TGWTG in general.

1. Trying to pad in storylines/side characters into reviews. I understand that some like it, some don't mind it. But to me, I really don't get why do Linkara, Spoony and the like need to cram in pointless story lines and wacky zany characters in a review, as I find them distracting and missing the point entirely. The point of a review is simply to highlight the strengths and weaknesses of a film, game, book, or other media. I don't really recall Siskel and Ebert ever having to fight off a wave of Xenomorhps led by a Cyborg Dr. Rutgerin Hauersano while reviewing Aliens.

Now, I do appreciate the merits of some of those storylines, I myself did enjoy certain aspects of the Mechakara arc. But I feel it would be best that something like Lewis' "Lord Vyce" arc, should be best kept as their own separate project. One reason why I enjoyed Brad Jones' "Hooker with a Heart of Gold", was that he didn't try to pad it into his Snob reviews.

2. Overuse of Cameos and Crossovers: I'm not opposed to the idea of crossovers, or just a 30-second cameo for a cut-off gag. But TGWTG has sometimes tended to overuse them, primarily whenever some of the staff are convening either for a convention, or any planned Anniversary videos. And not only that, but the crossovers themselves are just redundant. It's basically just two people on a couch saying "This Movie sucks!" "Yeah, I agree!". Just doesn't make sense as to why you need two people to bitch about a movie or game they both hate. I think a better use of a crossover would be to perhaps put two reviewers who have differing opinions over a movie. (Say, put Spoony and Jones into a crossover reviewing Scott Pilgrim, Spoony liked the movie, Jones wasn't a big fan. They can have a small debate, one explaining the strengths and why he liked it, the other explaining the reasons he didn't like it). That I believe would be making better use of a crossover instead of just contributing to ideas for Spoony/Linkara slash fanfiction.

3. The money they make from Blip.tv ad money. Noticed how Doug quit his job to focus on his site full-time, the same way Joe quit Dell to focus on his show? Their basically gambling on the supposed "opportunity" of internet fame and popularity, in the hopes of making a living off of internet reviewing. I don't mind them making money off the website if it's just for a side project. And indeed, several of the other reviewers on the site have had to juggle filming and editing along with their daily life. Thing is, Doug, Linkara, Spoony, Joe, basically whoever updates on a weekly basis, are willing to do this full-time. That is just showing irresponsibility and carelessness with one life because one cannot exactly make a living on the internet, it's simply impractical. Sure, right now their okay, but within 5-10 years, they may not be enjoying the same amount of popularity they are today. And when the inevitable comes, when Doug bids adieu to the site to move on with other ventures, what's going to happen to him afterwards? I'm not sure "Internet Critic" counts well as a job qualification for a man seeking work in his 40's-50's.

Long story short: Don't quit your day job to devote yourself to internet reviewing. It's not going to end well later in the road.

4. Decline in quality:

NC: Reason why I find his humor starting to decline: Well, for one, repeating old memes that have long stopped being funny. The Portal cake from Pebble and the Penguin as an example. Second, substituting jokes by referencing some scene in another movie or TV show, or just referencing jokes off of other media such as Family Guy, I just find that to be lazy joke writing and a sign that he's not putting effort into writing actual jokes. Third, I honestly think a good portion of his movies (It, the Lost World, Waterwold, Independence Day, etc), aren't really worth going over 25 minutes screaming over how much they suck, yeah their {YMMV} materiel, but hardly the {{So Bad it's Horrible}} vibe that he puts off. And fourth, his use of such words as "Abomination of Assness!" is among several complaints I have with him and the whole "Angry Reviewers" thing in general. Substituting jokes and humor with some horrible description of "I'd rather 'insert animal feces bestiality' act here', then watch/play this movie/game". It just shows laziness and lack of effort with creating actual humor. In his earlier reviews, Doug actually depended more on sarcasm and wit, actual humor, as opposed to his current tactic of screaming loudly and mugging the camera every 30 seconds, then cutting away to a scene from Blackadder or M. Bison in substitution of a joke.

And it's not just Doug that shows examples of laziness, hell, Spoony didn't even play the damn game for his FFX review.

Well, I've listed my grievances, now I await your rebuttal.

edited 24th Feb '11 7:48:50 PM by KoB

That's not a response to "Busy Street seems to be bad because X." That's a response to "TGWTG seems to be good because Y."

3. The money they make from Blip.tv ad money. Noticed how Doug quit his job to focus on his site full-time, the same way Joe quit Dell to focus on his show? Their basically gambling on the supposed "opportunity" of internet fame and popularity, in the hopes of making a living off of internet reviewing. I don't mind them making money off the website if it's just for a side project. And indeed, several of the other reviewers on the site have had to juggle filming and editing along with their daily life. Thing is, Doug, Linkara, Spoony, Joe, basically whoever updates on a weekly basis, are willing to do this full-time. That is just showing irresponsibility and carelessness with one life because one cannot exactly make a living on the internet, it's simply impractical. Sure, right now their okay, but within 5-10 years, they may not be enjoying the same amount of popularity they are today. And when the inevitable comes, when Doug bids adieu to the site to move on with other ventures, what's going to happen to him afterwards? I'm not sure "Internet Critic" counts well as a job qualification for a man seeking work in his 40's-50's.

Long story short: Don't quit your day job to devote yourself to internet reviewing. It's not going to end well later in the road.

And you care... Why?

If they fail, they fail. If they succeed, they succeed. Why on Earth does their livelihood matter to you? They're people you haven't even met!

edited 24th Feb '11 7:55:51 PM by Scardoll

I dunno, I guess I'm just bothered over the prospect of someone who goes on to make money off the internet for little effort as possible in that it sends the message that anyone with a camera and editing skill can do the same thing and get rich quick. Thus, flooding the internet with terrible video after terrible video.

edited 24th Feb '11 8:00:22 PM by KoB

And it's not just Doug that shows examples of laziness, hell, Spoony didn't even play the damn game for his FFX review.

... can you blame him? Aren't those Final Fantasy games kind of unbearably long?

As for the inevitably-being-pushed-back-into-the-regular-working-world argument, says who? That's like a 1920s newspaper editor declaring "He'll be back" when a dude heads off to LA to write screenplays; maybe he will be, maybe he won't. Who's to say whether internet-famous won't count as real-famous in fifteen years?

Good point, though the question is, will Doug still be relevant long enough to realize this?

My gripe with Spoony basically using Sage to play FFX footage for him, just shows to me that he doesn't seem willing to take time himself to improve on the quality of his videos, and just appears to be resting on his laurels. It doesn't help that he basically bans anyone who provides even the slightest of constructive criticism with such chestnuts as "You can't complain about free entertainment". I mean, at least with his FF 8 review, he actually played the game, you can kind of understand his frustration with the game mechanics or the story's numerous plot holes. I just don't feel the same with 10 since it feels more like him complaining over someone's LP of it.

Admittedly, I think he has gotten a bit better since reviewing FF, I've personally considered his Cage reviews for Reburary to be among his better reviews in a while, and a good return to his early days of reviewing, primarily because he's neither cramming in Insano every 30 seconds, or screaming bloody murder over a butchered Queen song.

edited 24th Feb '11 8:17:28 PM by KoB

"I dunno, I guess I'm just bothered over the prospect of someone who goes on to make money off the internet for little effort as possible in that it sends the message that anyone with a camera and editing skill can do the same thing and get rich quick. "

I can't speak for Doug or for anyone, but even in Doug's worst videos, to suggest that this is not work or that Doug puts "as little effort as possible" into this is eye-rollingly ridiculous. If his jokes aren't doing it for you, fine, but the idea that what he does is somehow lazy is itself very lazy criticism.

Regardless, whether your complaints are legitimate or not, Busy Street is not a good place for them, as they're too busy being dicks to take them seriously.

I tried to read through BS latest output and while there was nothing particularly trollish about it, my eyes stopped reading halfway through each paragraph. YMMV, obviously. I spend a good portion of my day on the SA forums but their actual homepage content doesn't rock my world either.

As for the points raised:

I disagree with 3 in its entirety. If they have fun doing reviews instead of slaving their lives away being office drones, let them. In today's economy you are lucky anyway if you can keep doing the same job for over 10 years and "internet celebrity" isn't any worse in a CV than "unemployed for 5 years" and we all know how frequent the latter is.

I disagree partially with point 4. I had the same impression once myself but then binged on his earlier stuff and compared it to more recent reviews. If you watched a guy going through the same motions every week for the last 2 years, you are bound to be a bit jaded about his newer output.

@Ana: Screw Attack has always kept giving off a mixed signal towards me, TBH. Some people wonder if the only reason people bother go to that site is because it hosts AVGN, the same way Escapist does for Yahtzee and LRR.

In regards to my 3rd and 4th complaints...I'll admit, my 3rd complaint does seem more like nitpicking on my behalf. But another problem I hold with Doug being dependent on ad revenue is now he becomes required to release an NC video every week in order the supply his income. Same thing with Linkara. Because of that,I find they don't have the time to properly edit and work out the details over their review due to imposed time constraints, and a result, some of their reviews I find to be half-assed in quality because they've had to rush it due to them needing to keep up with paying the bills. Not to mention, in Doug's case, it also means he doesn't have the time to do some of his other acts, like Bum Reviews or Ask that Guy. Hell's it's been a while since I've seen him do "That Guy Riffs", which I personally enjoyed. It's had me thinking that perhaps Doug would benefit from taking an occasional sabbatical or two, give him some to rest up, then he can come back with some fresh new material.

I'm more of a fan of some of the more...don't know how to say this, "Low-key" reviewers, Todd, Lupa, Roses, Mike J Paw, etc. Because, since I believe they do reviewing as a side project, they don't feel pressured about having to release a review every week, and as a result, take their time into preparing and editing before releasing the video. I can even say the same for Spoony, though I find his work lesser compared to '07 Spoony, I admit to getting a chuckle or two off his Highlander and FFX binge. My real issue with him is more towards his banhammer tendencies and his overall attitude towards his fans.

Either way, I just find myself a believer in the "Quality over Quantity" philosophy. And I feel TGWTG would benefit if they were to focus on that rather than the opposite.

edited 24th Feb '11 9:34:08 PM by KoB

Well, I mean, obviously trying to live off the internet isn't something most people should try to pull off, but I don't see why that's a reason to begrudge the small percentage who actually manage to do it their success, now matter how fleeting it may or may not be.

I mean, editing, reviewing, comedy writing and computer know-how are all pretty marketable skills, it's not like Doug's unemployable or anything.

Plus, he won an 'entrepreneur of the year' award, which must look great on a resume.

Eh, ninja'd. Well, still.

edited 24th Feb '11 9:37:05 PM by Gilphon

I know it's been said by people before, but I had to add it, why the hate on them making profit of the internet? Which is something I've read on the Busy Street entries, they -the people who has written the entries, not the blog as a whole- really seem pissed off for the fact that Doug Walker manages to make a living of something that started as a hobby, why? What'ts the point? Are they angry of every bar singer that catches a break and manages to make it professionally? Or a writer that starts doing stuff in free lance and then gets a good jig? It doesn't make sense, not you Ko B, you've given your reasons and they're understandable, I just doubt most of the others are that reasonable.

Also, internet based entertainment while new, is growing very fast, and Channel Awesome seems to be on the road to become something bigger.

Um, why does "online critic" not work as a resume entry? If he can support himself doing it, it's a legitimate job.

Y'all need to change your name. Everytime I see the abbreviation, I think someone is being insulted...

What's the point of debate? You like what you like, I like what I like. There's nothing to argue.

The thing is, as a whole, we really didn't care that BS hates TGWTG until those fan-targeting videos showed up.

Hatedom is one thing. Fan Hater is another.