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General Sonic The Hedgehog thread:
'ey, dis is Toime Gal, aka de 'Eroine of ToimeAnd people wonder why everything's been Sonic-only recently.
Flower FairyAt least everyone, including Sonic, but excluding Eggman, have been fairly quiet in-game lately. In fact, I know that some people prefer Jason Griffith over Roger Craig Smith because they feel Roger Craig Smith is too quiet and is out-of-character.
'ey, dis is Toime Gal, aka de 'Eroine of Toime...you did read the article right? He was talking about Sonic's friends, some of which have been around since the classics, not the voice acting.
The RazruchityelI especially like the people that say Sonic started sucking when they introduced alternate characters that you could play as. Really? I thought 3 was generally considered the high point.
Flower FairyI've said this multiple times already, but it was the multitude of wildly differing gameplay styles, not the characters themselves. I'm pretty sure it got confused along the way for being lots of characters.
HERO/RIDLEY ENTHUSIASTI never did understand the ire for the plethora of characters that aren't Sonic, Tails, Knux, and Eggman. I'd like to think it was a good thing to give Sonic more characters to interact with.
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'ey, dis is Toime Gal, aka de 'Eroine of ToimeThe article didn't mention their gameplay at all. Actually it was just a list of characters with no explanation as to why they're annoying in any way. They Changed It, Now It Sucks. That is all.
edited 8th Oct '12 8:59:57 PM by PhysicalStamina
Flower FairyI did appreciate the number of characters in the series like you, as it gave the series a sense of variety and depth to its world. Wondrously, the writers managed to give every single character a lot of deep characterization, which averted a common problem with series with Loads and Loads of Characters. It's just that they had to give each character wildly differing gameplay styles that makes them annoying, which probably isn't helped by the characters talking nonstop in some games.
I'm an Irene!Outside of the Fishing, I adored the various gameplay.(well, except when it glitched out) I had more trouble with characterization than the gameplay. Some actually don't like the characters, and some don't like the gameplay. For me, it would be the characters than annoy me if anything. Exception on Big. I actually like his character, but his gameplay is meh. Silver's gameplay I love, but I didn't like his character nearly as much. Rouge, I doubt her character was hated much at first, atleast since she provided fanservice. On the other hand, her characterization was pretty good in her first appearance alone. And she always was a deep character.(shallow in some of her thoughts, though. Damn thievery) Anyway, her gameplay was good too. So far, I haven't heard many complaints about her characterization, but some didn't like the Treasure Hunting and/or her Fanservicey bits. Although I don't know if there were any complaints about her in Sonic Battle. She was mixed for me in there. She had a very broken Jumping ability, except against Shadow, but her characterization outside of a bit of the start itself was just "yay, I'm a thief!", and that felt lame compared to how awesome she was in Sonic Adventure 2. IMO.
Flower FairyI know you liked the various gameplay styles, I remember you said it earlier in the thread. I actually liked the characterization in the Adventure duology, since it was varied and did a good job of representing growth of each of the characters, especially in Adventure 1. After Adventure 2, though, the deep characterization started going downhill for everyone except Shadow, and that was because he essentially became the series' main character at that point.
I'm an Irene!True. Although some of them kept it, like, well, Rouge. Cream was good in Battle, Sonic never really "swayed", and there was a bit in Sonic 2006, atleast. Silver(obviously), some for Blaze, even Amy showed the good parts she got from Adventure 1. Rouge, on the other hand, was kind of meh character-wise in 2006. I never much played through the Riders games. Was the characterization any good on those? Shadow was only a main for... two games after Adventure 2, his own and 2006. Black Doom is practically a main character in Shadow the Hedgehog, and we got 4 different ones in 2006.(Sonic, Shadow, Silver, and Mephiles. I'd say Elise, but... eh, she's closer to major supporting, IMO.)
Flower FairyOh, the spinoffs. I know that Sonic Battle did an excellent job at keeping every character deep and fleshed-out. Sonic Chronicles did to, but that was an RPG, so it was required at that point. I still stand by my opinion that the main series started to make nearly every character shallow after Adventure 2, though. Also, if you looked closely at the games from Sonic Adventure 2 to Sonic 2006, you could see that Shadow was already the main character by SA2, since the majority of the plot and character focus was centered on him. Also, he got a deeper story in Sonic Heroes than any of the other characters, who were just out to stop evil again. You're right about Shadow and Sonic 2006, though.
I'm an Irene!I really didn't consider anyone other than Sonic and Metal Sonic the main characters of Sonic Heroes, mind you. But if you think about it, nobody else was really much important. Not even Eggman, oy. Also, I meant beyond Adventure 2 for Shadow being the main character. Of course he's the main of that game. XD And Battle is only a spin-off if the Advance games are too. It's directly before Sonic Advance 3 due to Emerl turning into G-Mel/Gemerl/Gemel Chronicles was a spin-off, and possibly non-canon too.(most likely due to being Archie-based, which isn't part of the regular Sonic storyline, just an alt. canon, if you will)
Flower FairyWe talked about this already. The Advance games, as well as all of the handheld titles, are spinoffs. The main series consists of every game represented in the console version of Generations. It's how we organize it on the main page, too.
I'm an Irene!Eh, I don't agree. I go with Adventure 1 > Adventure 2 > Advance 1 > Advance 2 > Heroes > Shadow > Battle > Advance 3. But that's my view of it. And what I'm sticking with. However, I'm not going to turn this into an argument, so let's not say anything beyond the views that people have accepted. As in, I'm not interested in any derail(or focusing) on this particular section. Refer to my paragraph/sentences below for the subject I'm willing to talk about. Moving on, I want Cream to do something important for once. Like she was notable in Battle, and that was it. Well, and in Rush 1, but not nearly. And Rouge being... notable again would be nice. She's still semi-important, but rarely, or was. Then again, she almost never appears in the main series outside of "oh, she exists and is a friend", like mostly everyone else.
Flower FairyI'm sure that if Sega stops playing it safe and starts taking on ambitious ideas (which I want them to), the great characterization will come back, with all of the characters in and as likeable as ever.
I'm an Irene!They'd first have to stop with the "Sonic only levels". The reason the other characters worked better is because they had unique gameplay(Knuckles was an exception to this, however). Amy only slightly worked well when she was just a variation of Sonic's gameplay, but she wasn't terribly fun. Having to flee from an enemy wasn't great. Her inability to spindash in the Advances weren't very good. She was okay in the Fighting/Racing spin-offs, well, R for the Racing, anyway. I only really liked playing as her in Heroes. Or, found that one actually fairly fun. Okay, and 2006, since she was broken in that game. XD
Flower FairyI, on the other hand, want almost the opposite of what you want. The characters worked storywise because of awesome characterization. Gameplay-wise, having multiple playable characters was more fun for me when they could all traverse the same terrain as Sonic can, just with differing abilities. I'm sure that they could incorporate this idea well with the current Unleashed daytime formula, and even apply the characters' abilities so that they travel alternate paths in a game that is already full of them.
I'm an Irene!Ugh on Unleashed daytime formula. That was meh to me. Anyway, nah, I can't stand them all just being slightly different from Sonic. While it works with Mario, the unique gameplay(once again, outside of Knuckles) is what made me love them so much, and not just the characterization. Basically, that's making them just like they were in Shadow the Hedgehog. And to be honest? They were bleh in there outside of cutscenes/voices/etc. I want them to be actually different. Which is most likely why they're not playable. Because them being carbon copies of Sonic doesn't capitalize on what makes them unique at all. Characterization means little when you're playing the game, not watching a movie. While they were neat character-wise in the cutscenes, they all played overall differently to an extent in the games, even simply because of the differences in speeds, and power-ups. Especially with Knuckles and Rouge. Their hitboxes were different. Sonic and Shadow's main difference came from the two different power-ups, but the courses made up for that too. Tails and Eggman... not much different either. I think Eggman weighed slightly more. But like I said, outside of Fishing, I enjoyed each area. The thing about characterization, is that it's not the real meat of a video game. The gameplay is. Outside of completion, or Hard/Easy mode, people often will just play the starting guy regardless, unless there's a reason to play the others. Even in Advanced, none of them actually played the same. They were slightly similar, with the spindashes/speed boosts. But otherwise, different hitboxes, moves, and ways to get places. And Cream was a gamebreaker in Advance 2, but couldn't unlock anyone to make up for it. And so on. I like the gameplay differences as well as the unique characterization. I'd have dropped the series a long time ago if they were just lame clones in gameplay.(Heroes atleast made them different enough, even if it's simply the Hard/Easy/Normal/Unique modes)
Flower FairyThe playable characters are not carbon copies of Sonic even in games where they play similarly. They weren't like that in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, the Advance series, or other games like those. They played quite differently and had very different abilities despite being in the same levels as Sonic. I also hold the characterization value and the gameplay value of the characters to be in two different realms, and I just want the characters to be valuable in both of them.
edited 8th Oct '12 11:48:03 PM by WaxingName
I'm an Irene!That's the point I'm making, though. The fact they weren't carbon copies was why they were worth playing. However, they were boring in Shadow, and they were more favored when they had fairly different gameplay, as long as it didn't utterly suck(I.E. fishing). I am against them being nearly the same as is. The unique abilities were better overall in games like Adventure 1, because they were unique in more than just the cutscenes. I want both too. I do not want similar gameplay for anyone. Although there will be some partial overlaps. But Sonic Battle is a perfect example of how many characters can be somewhat similar, but still be vastly different. Many moves were repeated. Both Shadow and Sonic were near the same Speed. Even their Air attacks were fairly similar(well, base animation). Sonic 2006 would be the perfect example of how every playable character was quite different with no real copies or barely different situations. Albeit, it was glitchy, but I want stuff like that. Where they capitalize on their differences, even if some abilities overlap, they make up for it with other ones. It's probably why I like the game so much. No clones(well, there is technically Mephiles, in a sense. XD)
Flower FairyThing is, the point we're both making is that we don't want the characters to be the slightly differing copies. I however, don't want them to be wildly different either, which I feel was a factor that brought down several of the 3D games. I do want it to be like Sonic 3 & Knuckles and the Advance trilogy when it comes to playable characters. I just want that kind of playability to be properly incorporated in 3D (Sonic Heroes came closest in that department), and I don't care if it's Adventure style or Unleashed daytime style. Either of those could work.
edited 9th Oct '12 12:03:02 AM by WaxingName
I'm an Irene!To be fair, Adventure style had each character very different from Sonic. Atleast the first game, which had no actual clones. I want it to be like that, not Advance style at all. I'd love to see them go back to the Adventure-style gameplay(attempted with Sonic 2006), but do it right this time. And I'll take different over similar any day as long as it's implemented well. I don't hate clones, keep in mind, but in Adventure games, if the characters have majorly different characterization, majorly different gameplay should follow, IMO. Then again, I only find clones a good idea in Racing/Fighting games, since they work well there. And Racing games tend to have no reason for majorly different characters, heh.
Flower FairyWhy do you consider characterization value and gameplay value to have to follow each other? I'm totally fine with them being mutually exclusive.
I'm an Irene!I value Gameplay first. If it's extremely good(and makes each one worth playing), then characterization follows next. And they should go hand in hand too. They're both key to a game(that has storyline). Outside of perhaps Strategy RPG's, Racers, and Fighters, in other types of games, you want both so it's worth playing everyone. If they're all the same, there needs to be a reason. If it's just to hear that particular person's story instead of another, it's poorly implemented. If everybody appears in the storyline, then the gameplay itself still needs to be good to be worth playing through the game. I see them going hand in hand. Not one without the other. I do not value them separately, because the first key to a game is having enjoyable gameplay. Since a character is there to play, they should all have good gameplay. Then there's the story. If it's also good, sweet. If it's not, the majorly good gameplay will save it anyway. But if only the story is good, and the gameplay is just terrible(or freakin' boring), most won't trudge through a boring game to get to good storyline. They'll all look it up on YouTube, etc. Why? Because a key part to a game is playing it. I want them all to play fairly differently so it's worth unlocking everything. If you can view all the cutscenes while only playing as the main, sure, fine. But if you need to go through with each one, and they're all barely different, then you're basically doing the same thing over and over again just to get another Final Story with Super Sonic, which... is just freakin' stale now. The reason why Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 were so awesome is because no matter who you use, nobody is near identical to Sonic, or if they are(Shadow), the courses are still widely different(whether the same area, just plays different) so the experience is not the same. I didn't like the Advanced way of doing it because, well, there wasn't a huge amount of differences overall in the stages. It was the same overall stage, just slightly different routes. I was not an actual fan of that style. Where in Sonic Adventure 1, 2, as well as somewhat in Heroes and 2006, all the courses were overall different for each set of characters. That means nobody went through the same thing in any way possible. The issue with the Advances is that everybody could go through Sonic route. The gameplay differences felt like they weren't capitalized enough. Where as in, say, Sonic Adventure 1, minus Tails since he sometimes does only an exact part of Sonic's levels, you were in the same "course", but it was actually entirely different overall. This is why I loved them. You never entered the real same course(outside of codes). Each level was entirely unique. Adventure 2 did the same thing, by being in the same place, but had an entirely different level. Mission Street was Radical Highway, etc. It was even neat using Codes to switch around what character appears where. And they could get eachother's upgrades, which was funny. I thought both Adventures pulled it off perfectly. Heroes made it so each one still were widely different in the end. Sonic 2006 had no repeated levels like Adventure did, except it did it even better. Advances failed on that overall. I don't want the classic Sonic & Knuckles. I want the overall engine because it was perfect, but I don't want that style. I admit it did better than what Sonic 2 was, since Tails went through the exact same things, just had a few more options. Now, I know Sonic & Knuckles actually give the main two different levels overall. This is what I want. Actual different levels. No same levels, no near similar gameplay. Make each character unique. The cutscenes can be done regardless anyway. I get why they should be separate, of course.(cutscenes and gameplay) But I don't like making only the cutscenes noteworthy and the gameplay of little importance. Ever.
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