General Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Let me be honest. You can't impress everyone in the fanbase. Sega has been trying to do that for the longest time, and have basically tortured themselves with the rantings of others. That is why Classic Sonic is being brought back...again, we're seeing wisps, etc. Those are the kind of people who either, A) Jump on the bandwagon for every seemingly cool yet crappy and mostly flawed game, then bash others, or B) are just plain jealous of Sonic, or C) have never played anything outside of their own genre in their life. You want some games that were well done in its aspects? Alright. Let me show them to you. The original Sonic the Hedgehog, STH 2, STH 3 & Knuckles, the Adventure games (partially), Heroes (once you learn how to play it properly), the Rush games, Black Knight (controls were rather easy to pick up...if you actually READ them), Unleashed, Colors, Generations, and probably a few others I forgot to list off.

"Sonic Team doesn't allow Modern Sonic to carry a game on his own" -> "Modern Sonic can't carry a game on his own" is a logical leap, especially given that Sonic Team never gave it a shot in the first place.

There's also the question of whether or not he should have to, but that's a whole other can of worms.

It's the old "nobody does it, so it can't be done" problem that a lot of media has been forced to challenge these days, and generally the problem is with the people creating the media being conservative rather than the idea itself being unsound.

edited 28th Jun '17 12:00:17 PM by KnownUnknown

Personally, I find the idea that something hasn't been done before to be a pretty good reason to try and do that something, within reason. After all, we'll never progress if we aren't constantly pushing our boundaries.

why shouldnt Modern Sonic carry a game on his own? Classic Sonic clearly can. Mario, Zelda, Samus, Nathan Drake, and you name it. All of these characters don't have to split anywhere near as much focus on their brand identity as Sonic does. Yet, whenever there's a new Sonic game, we almost always have to deal with some new gimmick slapped on along side it.

And ya know what, I get it. Sega are taking little risks with the series to avoid backlash and trying to appeal to as many people as possible to "please" them. But as a result, they just kind of sucked all of the life and energy out the series. Yea, they're "good", but they're not fun, at least for me as someone who grew up on the series.

So I dunno. Sega seem content with this direction, so I find myself caring less about the situation overall.

Modern Sonic could carry a game on his own... it's just that Sonic Team themselves don't seem to think so.

Modern Sonic has technically already carried a game on his own: Sonic Rush and Sonic Rush Adventure, where the Boost style originated.

Those games were made by Dimps though. So I guess Dimps thinks things are fine but Sonic Team doesn't?

Modern Sonic carried Black Knight too, sword gimmick aside.

edited 28th Jun '17 2:07:11 PM by erazor0707

1) When I say "Modern Sonic" I mean "Boost Sonic"

2) You pretty much undid your comment when you mention the sword gimmick.

Should've specified "Boost Sonic" because "Modern Sonic" covers quite a bit of years. It's cool though.

But Black Knight does have psuedo-boost...

"Unleashed/Colors/Gens Sonic", how about that?

Glorious.

S Lo W is part of the era, but Sonic doesn't boost.

...Unless it's the start of a new era?

I really miss Sonic Heroes now. That was a really fun, unique, if somewhat cheesy game.

The only other games in existence like it are the X-Men Legends and Marvel Ultimate Alliance games.

edited 28th Jun '17 6:16:11 PM by Soble

It would have more fun if the levels weren't so poorly designed that they made Sonic Adventure 2 look like a masterpiece of gaming. I can't tell you how many times I died on Rail Canyon/Bullet Station, let alone how may times I tripped of the platforms and bounced off of the giant frogs in Frog Forest/Lost Jungle to my doom. If they had bothered to properly test the game and clean things up, it might have been a tour de force, but as is, it's just an exercise in frustration.

It's really not that bad, though the homing attack can be finicky sometimes. Mystic Mansion and Hang Castle were fine, as was seaside hill/ocean palace. I don't find myself falling off that much more than SA 2's harder levlels. And certainly less than the space speed levels.

I didn't like the pinball physics though...

edited 28th Jun '17 8:10:20 PM by Vertigo_High

Heroes` levels suffer from being Marathon Levels after Grand Metropolis/Power Plant, with levels stretching as far as 5+ Minutes. It's exhausting, especially if you died and therefore, lost any chance for an A rank.

If you had infinite lives, it wouldn't be a problem, but without that...

How would extra lives help with ranking?

...Never mind. Got it mixed up with just beating the level in general.

The simple answer is that Sonic is fast, and has platforming gameplay that is geared towards speedrunning - which means that, when you know what you're doing (and even if you don't) his games are going to be short, and not as "full" as its contemporaries on their own.

In both 2D and especially 3D, the faster a character goes, the fewer options you have to utilize platforming or enemy interaction (the basic means of adding fuller, more worthwhile gameplay for a platformer) without one getting in the way of the other (this is especially noticeable in Unleashed's Day stages, which suffered from not handling that balance of gameplay well more and more as the game went on). Speed is an element that revels in its simplicity, whereas platforming revels in its complexity - the balance of fast and slow is something the series has always wrestled with, but the fact that he is fast means that there's always was and always will be less variety in the things he does than for characters with less specific focus.

Or in short, Sonic has always been a game designed to be beaten short and sweet, even in the Classic era. While this isn't a huge problem imo, this means that it's harder for Sonic - Classic or Modern - to really carry a "big game" that has the length gamers have become accustomed to over the years. His gameplay style just plain isn't geared towards large amounts of content, and that's what "carrying a game" means nowadays. So if the developers want that sweet $60 big game hype, they need to fill that void with something.

Some Sonic games dealt with this by throwing in lots of cutscenes, padding out your time with extra story. Other Sonic games dealt with this by using additional styles of play, padding out your time with more gameplay. Most tried both, to varying degrees of success. Either way, on his own regardless of gameplay Sonic isn't going to be carrying a game that gives gamers what they consider nowadays to be a full experience, so the whole idea of $60, major games is something the developers either have to forego or get creative about making. Mania, bless its heart, just accepts the former and - while hyping itself up as a nostalgia game - isn't trying to be the company's flashy new big game. But Forces is, so out comes the additional stuff.

This is the same reason why Crash Bandicoot, a series also traditionally geared towards speedrunning, has had a bit of a Padding problem over the years (You got all the Crystals and beat the game! Now go back and do all the levels over again, and get all the Gems! And then do it again, but get all the Relics!) - including a period where, like Unleashed, they tried to give the games a more "acceptable" length by introducing a slow, tedious gameplay style that made doing what the character could normally do take long and be more involved. And the upcoming hyped up Crash game, which still isn't the full $60, is basically three different games mashed together. If they go forward with the Crash series, that's going to need a shakeup of some kind too.

The only speedrunning based character I can think of who carried a full big game in recent times is Rayman, whose games were awesome but also, imo, definitely overpriced and overhyped.

Mario can carry a full game by himself because he has what can be considered the most versatile platforming mechanics in the video game history. He has excellent horizontal and vertical movement, a variety of inherent tricks and abilities that can enhance that movement, while not being specifically centered around one basic action (except, jumping, I guess, but even then). So he can be used for speed, or climbing, or puzzle platforming, or epic exploration, etc, etc, and can more out of any new gimmick than basically any other character out there. The Mario series can get a lot of gameplay out of one new powerup, because that's the way his mechanics are designed. Whereas Sonic - to compare - has to have powerups that support what he is mechanically geared towards doing, and thus he rarely has powerups that actively add more gameplay avenues (though he certainly has had an "Insurmountable Waist-High Fence needs powerups" problem in the past).

The rest of those characters aren't straightfoward platformers, so them carrying a game is an entirely different kettle of fish. Traditionally, adventure games - even adventure platformers - are long, more conducive to story, and easier to fill with content without feeling repetitive. Even Metroidvanias that are primarily platforming still tend to be very different concepts than level based platformers like Sonic.

edited 28th Jun '17 11:29:17 PM by KnownUnknown

That's a good point. Sonic's abilities aren't really suited for longer games, but I mostly feel like that isn't really a problem for certain genres. I can still play the original Sonic games and have fun despite how short they are. Like you said, it's a combination of speed and platforming that helped.

You could either speedrun the entire game, or be more methodical. 2D levels are huge and always had many different paths you could take, but always kept Sonic's use of abilities in mind when gaining and maintaining speed.

Obviously they haven't replicated that in any of the 3D games, having to rely on some sort of extra content to justify the full retail price tagging. So as a result, the series just kind of lost sight of what it was with only a fleeting resemblance to it's former self.

There's...no real answer here. Even other games like Crash, as you mentioned, had this problem. Its starting to seem like an inherent issue with mascot platformers in general and would explain why they just kind of fell off the market in the modern gaming crowd. Nintendo truly did know what they were doing with Mario, because his basic abilities can literally be encompassed with anything.

Nobody bats an eye when Mario co-exists alongside photorealistic humans or turns into a fucking T-Rex, because his everyman personality can fit any mold and still be appealing. Sonic however feels much more limited in what he can do by comparison, which is why you have fans and critics crying foul for any real deviation.

Ironically, Mario's lack of an identity gives him one while Sonic's original identity has more or less been lost to time as he struggles to meet the demands of a demographic that's kind of outgrown him...Jeez.

So basically Sonic needs to go the Mario Maker route? :P

I think the best solution is for developers and fans alike to stop treading it like a problem in the first place. Developers need to stop thinking they need to throw everything but the kitchen sink into every new game or bending over backwards to "fix" issues that don't exist with "solutions" that don't help, fans need to stop railing when a game has less content than they're used to and also stop doing the same when a game has more aspects than just the base Sonic gameplay.

Imo, the fact that Sonic can't carry a full game on his own isn't a problem - it means that the ideal niche for "Sonic only / alternate but almost identical characters" is in digital, smaller scale but high quality games. And also imo, the fact that to have a full game there should be more than just the sole Sonic presence and gameplay style isn't a problem either - it means that the series should embrace having bigger games with more content and smaller games with more precision.

I often feel like this is one of the few fanbases/franchises of its type in the modern day where things like "a "full" game of this type requires multiple styles of play for content/length" are considered some kind of titanic failing that inherently mars its future. To me, there's still the question of "why does Sonic have to carry the game all by himself for it to be considered good?"

edited 29th Jun '17 12:39:17 AM by KnownUnknown