The General D&D thread

I personally enjoy the tactic of putting an intimidating looking but weak monster shortly before a climatic battle. Make them think they just munckin'd their way through a boss fight before letting them realize all they actually did was waste valuable resources.

Though, of course, that's not a trick that you can get away with trying repeatedly.

My problem with this sort of conversation is that it assumes an adversarial relationship between the DM and the players. The DM should not be trying to "beat" their players. They should be trying to let everyone at the table have fun. By the same token, the players shouldn't be trying to find ways to screw the DM. If my DM pulled something on me like running us through a gauntlet of encounters just to drain our resources, and then springing a boss battle on us, I'd be pissed because unexpectedly getting hit with a sledgehammer after suffering from dozens of pinpricks seems less like "here's a challenge I think you'll enjoy" and more like "here's something I came up with to kill you".

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Yeah, I guess it depends on the contract you had going in. "I'm going to present you with deadly situations that could very well wipe out the party if you're not up to them" should be something that the DM communicated to you before you started drawing up a character. Provided everyone's on the same page, "dracolich in a burning cathedral vs party on their last legs" could be perfectly reasonable.

That sort of thing can be a great narrative tool, but if a DM is going to throw a powerful enemy at you in a situation deliberately tailored to prevent your party from applying their full strength to the encounter, there damn well better be a plan B for what happens if the party loses, rather than just "TPK, campaign over, bad guys win" or "we'll redo that encounter until you win, like reloading a save point in a video game RPG" or "alright, everyone stat up a new character, your original party is dead so we're picking up the same campaign with a different group of adventurers" or etc etc etc.

Basically, the DM should never put the players in a position where they can "lose". That doesn't mean that they should never be defeated, or you should never kill characters, or anything like that. But the campaign should never end because the players failed to overcome a given challenge.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Reminds me of my GM, who tends to make things up as he goes along. At one points there was a real chance we couldn't overcome the enemies before it was too late. Someone mentioned a drow Gladiator arena, which knowing him he would have used if we had indeed failed to revive the consulwoman.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.

@Jovian: wait, you mean if your DM runs you through a dungeon you'd be pretty pissed? Man, you must hate this game. Or what did you think Dungeons were for?

I am a storyteller, not a Dungeon Master. As a consequence, I want to tell a story, one that is epic in scope. The wizard punking the epic encounter in the first round because he's got fifty bajillion spells and can cast two At once which will combine to be an instantaneous death for the thing he came specifically prepared for is not a story. That's just me sitting there watching my players masturbate, and that makes me uncomfortable on the best of days.

So the gauntlet, because its far more epic for the 10th level party to overcome the scenario that they are clearly not ready for through teamwork and thinking outside the box than for the caster to just beat the Big Bad like he just missed a John and now has to pah his pimp.

edited 26th Mar '14 4:17:24 AM by Frishman

If you meet me have some courtesy, have some sympathy, have some taste. Use all your well-learned politesse or I'll lay your soul to waste.

Frish, you have the best analogies.

I try.

If you meet me have some courtesy, have some sympathy, have some taste. Use all your well-learned politesse or I'll lay your soul to waste.

Yes, that's clearly exactly what I meant. *eyeroll* I thought I was pretty clear that my problem isn't with "here are some encounters before a boss battle", it's with "here's a situation custom-tailored to neuter you, because I'm the DM and I can do that whenever I want".

Here's the thing: your players getting suckerpunched by an encounter you designed specifically to sidestep areas where they're strong and drive straight into their weak points is also not a story. That's just you, to use your analogy, masturbating to your omniscience, omnipotent DM powers that let you do whatever you want to the players whenever you want to.

The key is balance. Providing a challenge is good. Rendering your players impotent is bad. The biggest part of the DM's job is finding that happy medium between cakewalk and curbstomp.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

I don't think anyone here is arguing in favor of curbstomping the players.

I am a storyteller, and a Dungeon Master.

I have a story in mind, but I compromise that for what is most fun for the group, if necessary. I certainly won't railroad their actions to meet what I expected. I'm not perfect, or the best DM, but I run a lax game that everyone involved enjoys. It is a fairly easy game because we're a group of novices, ^* Also the Party is seven to eight people large plus two animal companions and two cohorts but that's beside the point but its getting harder as we all get more experienced and the story is getting more intricate and better executed. Its still an easy campaign with evidence of my inexperience strewn through it, but its tailored to the players and I. The idea that someone should have to sacrifice gameplay for a story or vice versa on a large scale just makes me think that there might be some incompatibility between the adventure and the participants in it.

When I DM, I like to build a story and a world; when I play, I like to make a character and roleplay them. Not everybody shoots for those, though. I'm not entirely sure what I'm trying to say at this point, even, I'm just kinda voicing my mind. This is a problem I often have in written discussions, now that I think about it.

Mostly does better things now. Key word mostly. Writes things, but you'll never find them. Or you can ask.

So I posted something over at this thread just now, though I'm wondering whether or not I should have just posted it here and left that thread abandoned.

Mostly does better things now. Key word mostly. Writes things, but you'll never find them. Or you can ask.

I actually like neutering as long as everything's still balanced, and everyone's neutered roughly evenly, and by process of neutering, you don't remove meaningful decision making processes (that is, you aren't left with zero options on what to do). But encounters where the P Cs have to "think differently" against an enemy specifically designed to deal with their capabilities is nice every now and then.

And there's nothing wrong with the DM masturbating to his omniscience if everyone's on board with that. My DM uses "cutscenes" heavily, and it gets a bit overboard sometimes, but overall, the flow of the story is much better because of it.

edited 26th Mar '14 10:17:50 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Hey guys, I am going to try and introduce a wacky side quest for the group I am mastering that is about the elimination of the queen of all rats that lives in the sewers under a certain city. Her name is Rose-marie. I kindly request fresh ideas for that particular sidequest, the funnier the better.

Be sure to include Sewer Gators, you can never go wrong with Sewer Gators.

Maybe some Jaws references, with a shell-shocked rat-catcher coming out of retirement to show them the ropes?

"We're going to need a bigger boat."

"For the sewer?"

Not a bad idea, a Goblin/Kobold submarine down there would be pretty funny too. Especially if helmed by a Captain Nemo Expy.

No, because you said you hated it when DM's give you encounters that drain your resources before putting you up against a boss battle. That's every dungeon crawl ever, unless you're part of one of those groups that rests for eight hours in the middle of the demon-infested dungeon after every fight. Even if you're not, once the party wizard learns Teleport, there is literally no reason for the party to stay in the dungeon if they're not on some kind of tight schedule, enabling them to just jaunt out, catch a quick nap, then resume the dungeon crawl fresh and ready to curb-stomp everything with 9th level spells. So you have to compensate for it. You have to compensate for your player's strengths to balance them out and prevent them from steamrolling the climactic battle that's supposed to be epic and awesome, and you have to compensate for your player's weaknesses so that your encounter doesn't steamroll them in a parody of what they were planning on doing to your encounter in the first place.

Basically, every plot should be tailored to the party. I would no more put a bunch of Bards through a grueling zombie apocalypse than I would put a bunch of Fighters through political intrigue. Those are both very effective ways of neutralizing their respective strengths, but they're no fun for anyone because in those situations their weaknesses are magnified. PC's are delicate creatures, and making them feel weak or helpless is detrimental to their continued enjoyment of the game, but making them feel like they can do anything because the mechanics supports their game-breaking characters takes away from the enjoyment of the guy running it. Everyone should be having fun, otherwise it's not really a game.

Of course, some players will feel weak and helpless because they can't think outside their predetermined race/class combo. "I don't have a spell that can take on something like that!" says the Gnome Chaos Sorcerer in 4ed. "There's a chandelier up there," says the DM. "It looks pretty heavy." "Oh! Okay!" And then the gnome proceeded to climb the goddamn rope to hide in the chandelier and pelt the golem with spells that didn't work. The sad part was that the Golem wasn't actually tailored to neutralize the Sorceror. He'd just blown all of his Dailies on a group of fricking tin soldiers, and all of them would have been useful in dealing with the sonovabitch. But no. He chose to be stupid about resource management. And continued to be for the rest of the campaign, right up until the party itself voted to kill him.

Okay, rant over. Queen of all Rats, eh? You know all those sewer scenes in movies where they eventually get to the end of the tunnel and the water's all pouring down into whatever that pit at the tunnel hub is? That is a final fight area if I ever saw one. Especially with Sewer Gators.

Oh, and they also should seek the help of a legendary quartet of turtle-people who also live in the sewers below the market district where the baker, butcher, grocer, and cheesemaker are.

edited 27th Mar '14 6:02:00 AM by Frishman

If you meet me have some courtesy, have some sympathy, have some taste. Use all your well-learned politesse or I'll lay your soul to waste.

Well, I'm not a big fan of 4E (or 3E's) overreliance on daily resources either.

4E runs better if P Cs can only use one daily attack power per encounter, in my experience.

Daily utilities can still become a major issue, but that's probably just a lost cause, as different classes have different levels of emphasis on daily vs encounter utilities.

Ok, ideas noted. Starting the scripting.

Something I heard about which I figure might be a bit relevant around this thread.

My dad has a lot of old D&D books that I loved looking at when I was little. I think the statue on players handbook actual inspired a nightmare monster.

Put me in motion, drink the potion, use the lotion, drain the ocean, cause commotion, fake devotion, entertain a notion, be Nova Scotian

:/ Before my time, I'm afraid. Didn't even have a clue what D&D was until after I found this site; I was that sheltered.

i care but i'm restless, i'm here but i'm really gone, i'm wrong and i'm sorry, baby

So yesterday I had another session, this time with only six people in the Party. It went as normal, and then they fought a boss who killed one of the PC's. The rest killed the boss and the guy whose character died started making a new one, and after the fight pulled out an actual physical will that he had made beforehand that told them to go and bury him in a tomb full of monsters. So they did so, if having one rust monster in it counts as being "full of monsters", and then the guy had to physically leave the game and so we got to what should have been the denouement of the session. In the intended wrap-up of events, there was a bit of (wholly in-character) infighting and the Party split into three groups and went about going Off the Rails in the most glorious way imaginable for a bit, which wound up with them getting into the final boss battle of the campaign and winning. Oh yeah, they also got my PC back into things so I don't even have to bother writing myself back in for when my friend takes over next game.

edited 29th Mar '14 9:41:46 AM by RaichuKFM

Mostly does better things now. Key word mostly. Writes things, but you'll never find them. Or you can ask.

OK. So remember my divine spell failure issue in my campaign? We finally found the solution to that but essentially it's converting to another religion. Which my cleric isn't going to do easily. So until Character Development catches up to mechanical common sense (EG it becomes obvious that she can't do much good in the world without access to her spells) I've taking levels in Cavalier. I'm interested in Order of the Blue Rose because it synergizes with my characters philosophy well, and unlike the other relevant Order the Order of the Star there's no loss of abilities if she does end up converting (there might be another way it's unclear).

The issue is the Order's edicts seem to require an even more extreme version of Paladin policing. It's one thing for her to be locked into non lethal attacks (my GM's letting me access up to level 3 cavalier abilities which means Flat of the Blade makes non-lethal attacks are actually SUPERIOR to lethal attacks) but everyone else takes a penalty and one of our primary damage dealers is a Barbarian and the other consistent offensive force is a magus that REALLY REALLY hates the cult that we're fighting. So how should I handle that? I can find logical reasons to take already disabled enemies alive (getting information out of them) but how to I stop them from killing my challenge in the middle of the fight? Just hope the GM doesn't enforce that rule?

Also in a game where Talking Is a Free Action making my char waste a round to set up a diplomatic challenge seems a bit incongruous. Then again I think that's true with all the challenges and the bonus should be worth it because dwarf.

edited 1st Apr '14 10:00:48 PM by RhymeBeat

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.