Buddhists and Intrigued Non-Buddhist Laymen, CONVERGE HERE

Thanks you very much

I think I will stop for now or I won't stop asking questins

edited 26th Mar '12 9:21:25 PM by FallenLegend

Make your hearth shine through the darkest night; let it transform hate into kindness, evil into justice, and loneliness into love.

Again it's fine if you do. Feel free to ask more if you like some other time.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

thank you are so nice. I am going to bed for now. But I will

Make your hearth shine through the darkest night; let it transform hate into kindness, evil into justice, and loneliness into love.

Posting this here as well because some people have asked about exorcisms here in the past. From the Christianity coven post:

The priest in the latter film is apparently Taoist which is a good bet with anything involving a Chinese exorcism. Or China and religion in general. Unless the words "Shaolin monk" are spoken of course. I honestly know nothing about our exorcism methods. Partly because Thai Buddhism has no exorcism methods due to the fact that Thai Buddhists, they're Theravadan, don't believe in "demons" who "possess" people.

If there's anything to exorcise it's all in your mind. Your highly uncontrolled mind.

We do have spirits and such, but they don't take over bodies. They tend to work by invading thoughts and suggesting things. Sort of like that person who tells you to go bang some broad you wouldn't want to otherwise. Difference is this being, while physical, isn't necessarily so on your realm because it's not in your realm of existence. That or they're outright burning shit because they're fucking pissed. Asura are pleasant. They're not considered evil however. Just products of being born in a highly unpleasant realm and worthy of pity because of it. Anything they do is because they're pissed or otherwise unhappy and they're more or less stuck in that state constantly. It's a result of a lot of accumulated bad kamma of certain types.

Buddhism does have this history of mingling with existing religions however so a monk may get involved in things by offering a prayer or by taking on the roles of the former religious leaders that they devoured wholly. The key word is may.

Unless we're Tibet in which case it's just part of Buddhism itself now. Vajrayana is rather...different and adds a lot of stuff. Which isn't bad, but I'm confused by it since it's so alien.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

Having studied Buddhist exorcisms a bit, I've learned that they are usually performed by the head priest at a temple. They usually start by attempting to appease the spirit by offering it something and going for a win-win situation. If that isn't possible, an excorcist will try to expel it by chanting at it, usually trying to sound like they have as much authority as possible. Although I don't know a lot about Jewish exorcisms, I've actually heard that they do a good deal of the former in the very rare case that a Jewish exorcism happens. In some extreme cases, Buddhists may also attempt to get the spirit to leave by puuting the body it is believed to be posessing through extreme pain or stress to make the spirit leave. Some Christian exorcists do this too. The latter method is often criticized for doing more harm than good however, as it may cause the person undergoing the excorism to die in the process.

So my taking of the precepts went well. For my sleeping I had an oddly convenient bit of help. Namely my grandmother has this weird little calculator alarm clock thing controlled by a stylus that she stores in her computer room/guest bedroom which had a default alarm setting (the alarm was on by default, she took it out of the box the day I arrived and did nothing to it nor did I tell about my nefarious plans) of 4:00 AM. Which was odd...but helpful! I battled hunger with ample amounts of coffee, 7-Up!, and water along with hearty breakfasts and lunches.

Meditation comes to me easier during these taking of the Eight Precepts which is nice. I didn't have much room to do walking meditation in room though. I read a lot as well. On Saturday I was taken to the temple and I intended to help set up but I didn't see anyone out. Getting nervous I just sort of left though I should have gone inside. I'm well liked enough that I can walk in and even if I wasn't I could anyway. We're very nice at Suddhavasa. I got cold feet and ran regardless. I spent the day helping my grandparents with the shopping instead.

Sunday I went back with Buttercupistiny for Songkran. This is the first time I've been able to attend since something's always come up. Getting her around the temple is a bit of a challenge because there are a good deal of stairs but we worked out a good system that involved minimum hassle and we got good at cleaning off her wheels and such so as to not track dirt into the temple. We got there an hour or so early which we spent meditating. I reached that state that I call the "Solid Rock State". It probably has a real name... There were a total of four sermons and chanting sessions. One of which involved the water pouring ritual. The last of which was followed by Songkran's signature ritual. The water blessing. You take a bowl of water and make a wish then walk about touching the bowl to your head each time as you pour water on the Buddha statues placed out. After the Buddha statues you drop to your knees and pour water into the hands of the monks and elders, each of whom offer you good luck and their blessings. I know the monks there so the blessings I got were personalized to fit me. That meant a lot to me.

Now while there...My nervousness came back to bite me in the ass because each of the monks and each of the regulars of the temples (there are like 5) came up one by one to ask what happened to me. They saw me. Didn't see me come in. Wondered what happened. Came out and didn't see me and went "...?"

Next time I will be sure to check. Nervousness or not. I will be stronger.

Buttercup had a great deal of fun as well. Explaining things was interesting and fun. Many comparisons were made to her own religion by her and she had to explain some of them as well. She said she wishes to take me to one of their Easter seasons masses. In part because our Songkran reminded her of the sprinkling rites. I'd like that.

On another note: While being transported around music would be on because I didn't have it in me to ask anyone to turn it off. That seemed mean to impose that on others. Pointlessly so. This made me realize something about music. I have passively observed this before but for the first time I really consciously realized it. Music makes me hideously oblivious. I can't concentrate at all while it's on. I would look out the window and listen to my grandparents trying to focus on one of these things but instead my vision would become hazy and I would become very monkey minded, thinking about all manner of things. Random images and sounds. Some of which were explicit in nature or exceptionally violent. Then I'd shift to mundane thoughts.

Then the music would be off and we'd get out and suddenly my sight would come back and I would be back to how I am while taking them and when I am at the temple. Everything is so crystal clear. I can see things. Really see them. I don't just look at things. I perceive them and notice them. And I can react. I'm stable to and I can control myself. I'm not hideously emotional and fluctuating rapidly and I'm not horribly addled by my OCD and my paranoia. I'm simply there. In the moment. And if I need to plan I'm actually fucking able to.

Because I simply am. Music completely ruins this however.

It's lovely for writing though. This is what I shall use it for. And making noise when I'm lonely. I need to be clear and open to things. Even the monsters whispering to me.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

I'm glad you had what sounds like an enjoyable time. I can relate to your problems with focus, although for me music generally helps me focus. The only thing that really gets me is random obnoxious sounds, like my younger brother playing Call of Duty online.

So I'm currently reading the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius, which is considered a touchstone piece of Greek Stoic philosophy and is generally a fascinating look into the mind of the last of the "5 good Emperors".

Anyway having read through the book it struck me that there are a few similarities between Aurelius's brand of Stoicism and the tenements of Zen Buddhism, which admittedly the only knowledge I have of are what I recall from a wiki-walk on eastern religions and Osamu Tezuka comics. In particular, both belief systems have the separation of the individual from desire as one of their core practices, as well as asceticism and mindfulness in all facets of daily life.

I found some interesting discussions on the subject, and having read through them the basic consensus is that while Stoicism and Buddhism do have a few superficial similarities, but emphasize completely different methods of practicing them. Stoicism is seen as a primarily individualistic pursuit, one in which you seek to actively refine your use of formal logic, rational thought, and dependence on material goods, whereas Buddhism emphasizes meditation and community involvement to develop a better sense of compassion and empathy.

So I thought I would bring that up here, since it seemed as a good a place as any. Also I have a question on Buddhist cosmology-specifically what place does it have in modern Buddhism? I know that there are god-like figures that inhabit various roles and that there are numerous levels of existence approaching infinity, spanning from what basically amounts to Heaven, Hell and Purgatory, but with much more ambiguity in-between. Is this world-view relevant to many Buddhists today? I'm guessing it has to do with nationality and sect as well.

edited 7th May '12 5:12:30 PM by DesmondO

You are right that Buddhism is very community driven. In pretty much all its forms community and groups are highly important. In Thailand the connection between the Sangha and the laity is a very strong one, as an example. The temple is where you go for all big events and if you need help. The laity in turn supports the livelihood of the monks and enable them to live lives best suited for reaching Enlightenment.

As for the cosmology...The importance of this varies based on area and sect. Generally in the States and in the West the cosmology is unimportant. Atheistic and otherwise very detached forms of Buddhism and certain schools are most popular. In areas such as Thailand the cosmology is much more important. While the thing isn't strongly practiced by most people in Thailand the cosmology is rather culturally entrenched and it's important with the monks and more devout laymen.

I myself am a Thai Theravadan. Though I'm not racially Thai. For me the cosmology is very important. I'm still trying to work it all out as well with the rest of my faith. The cosmology and philosophy and practices are very tightly entwined in Theravada. Though deity worship isn't a big thing in Theravada. Save for Burmese and Thai Buddhism Bodhisatta worship isn't common. Local deity worship is however incorporated into the Buddhism in countries in general. So in Thailand Loi Krathong, a festival centered around Ganga worship, is practiced by Buddhists there and the festivities take place at wats.

I myself have taken on a Bodhisatta to worship for personal reasons. Namely Guanyin. I seek to live up to her example and do what I feel would make her proud. When things get particularly bad and all the world seems to be collapsing around me I pray to her for assistance. Even if it only be strength to get up and try to face the adversity.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

Ah, thanks for that. I figured it would be more prominent in the old countries.

Sure thing. If you have other questions feel free to ask. I'll answer to the best of my ability. Being Theravadan I am most knowledgeable about Theravada. In particular Thai style. I do have some base knowledge on Mahayana and Vajrayana, but it's not much.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

I'm currently suffering from Angina. It started out mostly as a fever, but now it's starting to rend my throat apart. I tried some of the old wives' tale ways to clear up my pipes (gurgling salt water didn't work because I almost puked the moment I tasted salt and breathing steam seemed to work, but the effects faded way too fast).

I went to take a shower, and out of a moment's impulse I sat at the bottom of the shower and meditated. First time I meditated for reals, instead of just to be pretentious. It put the pain away for way longer than the other methods.

So yeah, my first real touch with buddhism, and already it looks promising!

Yeah meditation can be lovely for dealing with pain physical or mental. You just have to be able to get into it and stay with it even if a surge of pain wants to distract you. It won't cure your problem of course, but it can be a form of relief.

This is also a cultural solution to problems at my wat. Well not solution. Way of making it suck less so we can find a solution. "I am currently upset and crying." "Go sit. You'll feel better." This is very common at our wat. The abbot and such will talk to you eventually of course, but you'll first be told to sit and meditate to calm down first.

Now one thing important about meditation and keeping it working...You need faith and belief in the concept. Otherwise you'll get distracted and go "This is bullshit." So if you're new to meditation don't think too much about doing it absolutely perfect and don't go in horribly skeptical.

This is one part of a concept involved in deeper meditation and meditation theory at least in the Theravada. Namely it is part of what are called The Five Controlling Faculties. Faith is the first. It is followed by effort, mindfulness, concentration, and understanding. When you get deeper into things you'll learn all those gradually as well as how to balance them. When first starting out though I've found that faith is the easiest to work with and the most necessary.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

For me, meditation helped a whole lot with controlling my OCD and intrusive thoughts, which is part of what led to my interest in Buddhism.

Dealing with OCD and manic depression is part of why I became Buddhist. It working was another bit of it.

Now I feel like making a post about sexuality and how it is viewed in Theravada. The general assumption of those who know anything about Buddhism appears to be that "sex is bad and shouldn't be had." This view isn't entirely incorrect. There is indeed a non-positive view of sex in Buddhism for the most part. One that remains in Theravada. However the view isn't entirely "Sex is bad and you shouldn't have it ever."

Because that leads to a problem. Namely...We kind of need more humans to keep our Enlightenment machine of doom going. There needs to be babymaking so that new laymen can support the Sangha and so that new people can become members of the Sangha to support the laity. So while suffering is indeed an intrinsic part of reality, reproduction isn't a bad thing. Reproduction keeps the system going and opens up venues for the advancement of our goals. Without reproduction things stall and die horribly. Just look at pandas.

So where does the "Sex is bad" view come from then? Well let's start with what the goal of Buddhism is. The goal, at the end of things, is Enlightenment. Now part of Enlightenment is abandoning of sensual pleasures, attachments, and desires. Sex happens to be a sensual desire. So are all those fiction novels people read every day. Even families and romantic relationships and affection based friendships are. If it causes a temporary emotional high associated with pleasure and fun it's more or less tossed in the sensual pleasure category. Sex just happens to stand out a lot.

For a few reasons. One being that people like sex quite a bit. Let's face it. Unless you suffer anorgasmia or are asexual sex is pretty damn sweet. There are two other reasons sex stands out above say things like video games and the internet in the Sensual Pleasure Olympics. Namely there are precepts in every set of Sila and vows within the Vinaya that pertain to sex. So. Does that mean sex is forbidden?

If you're a monk of the Theravada tradition or a sex negative Mahayana school then yes it does. Monks are forbidden from having sexual relations with any gender or sex. They are also taught to turn the mind away from lustful thoughts. Even thoughts are on the list of things that you must avoid. This also leads to you being banned from touching members of the opposite sex in many schools. The monks at my temple cannot so much as lay a hand on me. And I can't touch them either. Even handing them things is a risky venture.

These are monks though. They are supposed to be abstaining from worldly pleasures and desires. Their entire lifestyle is built around providing them the best possible conditions for training and reaching Enlightenment. As well as helping the laity with their lives. So that lives down the line they too can become monks who will teach and reach Enlightenment.

But. The laity. Normal people. What about them? Sex isn't forbidden to laymen. The laity takes on what are called The Five Precepts or Pancasila. They are a series of guidelines that the layman is supposed to follow to the best of their ability. In these exists the precept of "One shall abstain from sexual misconduct". Not sex. Sexual misconduct. So what in the blazes does that mean?

Definitions vary. And by that I mean the more exact bits of the precept. All definitions will carry "No rape" and "No adultery". Cheating is looked upon very negatively in Buddhism. Because it consists of many things you shouldn't be doing. Like lying. And you're hurting other individuals and causing hell. Which is the exact opposite of what you're supposed to do as a Buddhist. The no rape thing is rather obvious. Causing of harm and pain.

And that my friends is what sexual misconduct boils down to. Causing of harm and pain with sex. If the act is going to hurt someone else's feelings or their physical form something is horribly wrong and it falls into sexual misconduct. So things like breath play would fall under sexual misconduct. Because there is a very real chance someone can die or suffer brain damage during it.

The exact specifics are up for the individual to decide. Not all Buddhists are fine with practices like BDSM and yet others are. And this boils down to that harm thing again. Is it harming the individual? In a way that is dangerous and unwanted? Then don't fucking do it.

Of course this leads to another issue. "What about people who disapprove of things like BDSM even if safe, sane, and consensual practices are known about?" This varies. Some people just find it squicky. Others think it is unnatural and shouldn't be done. Still others object to it on the grounds that even with things like that it still isn't safe. You're still hurting another individual and you've taken a vow of ahimsa which means you don't do that.

And where does this leave non-heterosexual people? In a void more or less. Views on homosexuality and such vary from country to country. Everyone has a different answer and none of them are supported outright by the canon. Because there is no mention of homosexuality within it. The closest you get is the one gender that essentially boiled down to "crossdressing male prostitute" which no longer exists. And they were mentioned in regards to the fact that the monks can't have sex with them. Or anyone. They were also in a grey area in regards to whether or not they could be ordained.

At the end of things though, regardless of your sexuality and gender, sex is considered a sensual pleasure and a barrier to Enlightenment. So if you're serious about it you have to give it up. Straight or not. You aren't so much as wanking or thinking about banging people or how hot that one woman's ass is. At least in the Theravada. There exist Mahayana schools were monks can have families after all.

So is Buddhism sex negative? By and large yes. It's hardly the sex hating beast it is occasionally made out to be though. It's all about how you use sex while you're still a layman. Are some Buddhists sex hating repressed people who couldn't use a little loosening up? Yes. Indeed. And they justify it with their religion. However they don't make up all Buddhists and Buddhist thought and, in regards to the Theravada, I feel they are missing the point. Sex itself isn't bad for a layman. It's how you use it.

edited 9th May '12 12:48:37 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

Is Buddhism natalist?

I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.

Primarily yes. Though anti-natalist forms of it likely exist.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

But strictly speaking, under the point of view that you are describing, isn't causing pleasure with sex also undesirable, as it generates attachment?

Not a criticism, just something I was wondering about.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Ultimately yes. But in order to keep the world working we need sex and an outright ban on non-procreative sex isn't going to do much good. People are going to do it anyway. You should teach them how to be irresponsible fucks with it as that will likely do more good than saying "NO SEX EVER UNLESS BABIES". Besides recreational sex provides lessons for the laity. Kind of hard to know the downfalls of sex in truth without having experienced them firsthand after all. You could have an intellectual knowledge of it. You could know that cheating hurts people as an example.

But do you understand just how much and just how badly adultery can fuck things up? Do you really get how much it hurts you and the people involved directly? Hell it ripples out and disrupts people beyond just you, your partner, and the person you're cheating on them with.

It's hard to get a real sense of that without having gone through it.

So you hopefully learn to respect the act and feelings of others and to use it more responsibly. Which over time and through meditation and more learning will result in a disenchantment with sex which leads you to detachment from sex.

edited 9th May '12 1:46:24 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

Just curious and dropping in to see what I can learn.

Rarely active, try DA/Tumblr Avatar by pippanaffie.deviantart.com

Greetings. Feel free to ask questions. My tumblr is largely a repository for ramblings about the religion. There is also this thread that I used to give a basic overview on the faith and significant parts of it.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

Thank you, Very much.

Rarely active, try DA/Tumblr Avatar by pippanaffie.deviantart.com

Sure thing.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

I didn't know you had a tumblr Aon, I'll probably subscribe to it. Also, I've been considering doing a liveblog of What the Buddha Taught, if only to help me get off my ass and actually finish that book. Would anybody here read it if I did?

edited 16th May '12 12:17:32 PM by randomtropeloser

I made one to keep up with updates to the Homestuck Shipping Olympics updates so I decided I may as well use it...

As for your question. Possibly.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah