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The Factory of Sadness.

Careful when saying that one must follow the Bible as a whole. Not only don't we have to follow Leviticus (since some of the stuff written there is about Jewish priesthood, for example), but I also (alongside all other Catholics, plus the Orthodox, and even most Anglicans) don't do the sola scriptura thing, which means that, for me, it's best to build a really good interpretation of the Bible over the years/decades/centuries (while keeping the core beliefs and messages intact), rather than following it without critical thinking or without a literal/ultra-hardcore interpretation (I'm sure you don't do this, but it's something to keep in mind).

@Corvidae: You know the message of 'love your enemy' (Matthew 5:44)? The WBC doesn't seem to have much love in regards to other people (including most denominations within Christianity) - considering their constant 'God hates X' signs they carry on their protests. And, like Pwener said, it's best to do lots of research, ask people of different denominations, and you'll have many different answers about why the WBC gives Christianity a bad name.

edited 7th Feb '16 6:38:59 AM by Quag15

You're absolutely right Quag and thanks for pointing it out, it's such a critical mistake many people outside the church make. I'll make sure to adjust accordingly next time I speak of such matters.

Even those of us who happen to be "crazy bigoted false prophets"?

I meant that in the sense that even if we don't see eye to eye on our beliefs we can continue to debate, chat and overall have a good time here on the forums. Jesus told us to never hold anything against anyone even if we're cursed, especially if we're cursed, as we should bless them in return.

If you meant that about what I wrote about the Westboro "Church" then my answer is still the same BUT that doesn't mean I can't call people out for doing wrong, especially when it hurts others. Jesus wants us to be the light that purifies the world of evil and to do so we must be vocal as he was vocal about our brliefs and what (and WHO) we represent.

edited 7th Feb '16 7:04:42 AM by Pwener

Hey now, let's not go so far as to say that *certain brand of Christianity* is denied salvation. With the WBC I'm inclined to believe it, but all the same we'll be no better than they are if we go around to other Christians saying "You're going to hell because X". Like, for instance, despite the LDS being sort of a cult of personality and believing a lot of kooky things, I still think of them as Christians. I actually live down the road from a Mormon church and when some of them came by our house they were actually really nice guys.

Good point.

It is a good point and I'm inclined to agree but sadly there are extreme cases where the message is so distorted that it becomes clear that what they believe is an offshoot religion and not the original gospel. I'm sure you must agree on that.

I for example would never say such about any Catholic even though praying to Mother Mary, the whole Pope thing and venerating the Saints is an insidius manipulation of the Devil to deceive believers into worshiping something that isn't God, a capital offense in both Old and New Testaments. In other words; sin.

I'm sure God in his infinite love and patience has many sons and daughters within the Catholic church. Doesn't excuse the fact that they are doing wrong in worshiping idols of course but God has ways in which he can turn people from such things.

edited 7th Feb '16 7:28:06 AM by Pwener

This is a valid point, but I still fail to see what the problem is.

Well, first, we don't worship the saints. Veneration is the key word. When we pray to Mother Mary (aka the Queen of all Saints), we don't pray in the same way we pray to God. We ask her (or other saints) to intercede for us in regards to God. We don't put Mary nor the Saints above God (and not even on the same level, naturally), so you can't really accuse us of worshipping idols.

Besides, we're merely the more vocal/visible denomination in regards to Mary. There are other denominations which put her on the same level worthy of veneration (e.g. Orthodox, some Anglicans). All I can say is that she's very inspiring, to lots of people:

And that is all I'm gonna say.

As for the Pope, that is another matter, which is rooted in history and, more importantly, in the interpretation we have of the famous line said by Jesus to Saint Peter.

edited 7th Feb '16 7:57:39 AM by Quag15

Yeah, it's the same sort of distinction you make between God and some kind of celebrity or something you like. Like WBC once screeched "Idolatry!" for a town mourning firefighters that had died in a fire. There's a very evident line between admiring or venerating and outright worshipping something.

Pretty much exactly what Quag and Librarian said. I may look up to someone and see them as something to aspire to, I may pray to someone who isn't God, but I would never put them on the same level as God.

And when you're a lesbian Catholic like me, there are certain things you pretty much have to disregard in the Bible.

Let's pretend for a moment that there actually is a group of people that do worship the saints and put them on the same level as (or even higher than) God. Why would their beliefs be any less valid than either of yours?

Personally, I don't think anyone is required to be Christian to get into heaven. I think being a good person is enough, regardless of your beliefs.

You don't need to understand how the earth works in order to live on it, so I don't think you need to believe in God or Jesus' teachings in order to be loved and accepted by them. I think that believing in them is a way to get a better understanding of them, and become closer to them.

Short answer: Because it would theologically contradict and/or enter into conflict with the monotheist structure of the Trinity. Which is a core/central belief and mystery of the majority of denominations within Christianity.

In fact, it would end up entering into conflict with monotheism, period. Since Christianity, as a whole (or very close to a whole) in its core, adheres to monotheism (with perhaps the exception of Christian deists)...

I can't answer much better than that (unless I spent some more time doing some deep research). I'd have to see an actual denomination or group that did such a thing and I'd have to analyse their arguments.

edited 7th Feb '16 11:10:15 AM by Quag15

All this is really saying to me is that their beliefs wouldn't match your interpretation of what Christianity is. Fine, let's say that they call themselves something else then. Would that make any difference?

Well, it's not just mine, it's the interpretation of most Christians (to a bigger or lesser degree) out there , which has a long-standing body of work (theological, philosophical and so forth) backing it up. You may not agree with it, but I think you shouldn't disregard it.

If they call themselves something else other than Christian (or their belief as something other than Christianity), then the point is kinda moot, right? It would simply end up being another religion or faith alongside many others. Unless I'm misunderstanding your question.

edited 7th Feb '16 11:49:04 AM by Quag15

My point since the beginning of this has more or less been "inconsistent with the Bible and/or mainstream Christianity =/= automatically false".

Whether the WBC or any other group technically count as "true Christians" or not has no bearing whatsoever on how believable their claims are to me.

Well, how do you define 'inconsistent'? While I do agree that there should be some degree of free interpretation, I still think there has to be a line somewhere.

Also, since you're saying 'inconsistent with the Bible': what is the interpretation of the Bible you're thinking about? And what methodologies of interpretation are you referrring to when making your initial point?

While I haven't said that the WBC weren't 'true Christians' (I said that they gave Christianity a bad name), I do have to ask you this (as an analogy): Since you're open to very different claims to the point of said claims straying far from the original definitions, tenets, rules and so forth (and you're willing to include the WBC, regardless of whether they're true Christians or not), [how much] would you believe the claims of TERFs (in regards to feminism), considering that some of their claims are anathema to the core tenets of feminism and its general inclusiveness within the current modern society?

I don't. Pwener claimed that the WBC were ignoring or distorting parts of the Bible. I'm saying that even if they do (and even if that means that they shouldn't be called Christians), that doesn't automatically mean that they are wrong. Maybe the Bible got certain things wrong and they're just correcting it? I don't know.

That would depend on how convincing the TER Fs arguments where and on what kind of evidence they where presenting. Saying that "they're not feminists" (though arguably true) wouldn't do much to persuade me in either direction.

I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to decline to continue this discussion. You're asking me to consider the possibility of them being right about God hating my country (and everyone else's countries), me, my family and friends, and so many more people just because of who they are or what they believe, and so forth. And I can't do that, for I believe that God loves people, even if we the people fail (or tend to fail) a lot in terms of morals and ethics. You've pressed one of my berserk buttons, so I can't continue this discussion on a non-emotional level (especially since I'm usually very emotional about these things). Sorry.

edited 7th Feb '16 1:45:37 PM by Quag15

For what it's worth, them being right would mean that God hates me too, and I don't personally believe that they are.

I don't know about them being right the WBC about God. Since I can't speak for God, but I don't think they are and I would have a hard time worshiping a God that found them right. I definitely think Feminism and the path to all that is far more knowable so I can definitely condemn TERFS and say they are wrong.

To be perfectly honest you're kind of approaching Poe's Law territory here, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're being sincere.

"You cannot ignore parts of the Bible, because some parts of the Bible say that you shouldn't."

Are you starting to see what the problem is yet?

Regarding Hell: If your beliefs are correct, I am going to Hell. There is no way around it. You could still try to convince me for the sake of letting me know the truth, but it wouldn't save me. I cannot respect (not to mention worship) a God who allows Hell to exist.