Republicans move to redefine rape to limit taxpayer-funded abortions

FINALLY something I disagree with Barkey on, even if only due to a technicality! My personal rule of thumb is "it's not a human until it starts to breathe on its own, or its mother says it's human, whichever comes first".

But other than that completely agreed, keep bringing the pwn thank you.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

All I'm saying, is that I haven't seen anyone pro-choice roll up into a church and start shooting people of your political alignment in the face. I could be wrong though.

Anyway, as to that sort of strategy, it's dishonest, and it completely negates any form of trust with the party doing it. There has to come a point on these issues where after being fought over long enough, everybody gets some qualified people to discuss it, do research, and think and debate very heavily about it, and then make a decision that everyone has to just abide and move on, instead of debating said decision.

Oh yeah, that did happen, it was called Roe V Wade, and y'all lost.

Edit: Fine, if you want to be pedantic about this, whenever the child exits the mothers body and starts living on its own.

edited 30th Jan '11 2:25:02 PM by Barkey

^^^Pretty much where I stand. Although at the end of the day, the health and welfare of the mother takes precedence even within those parameters.

@Ooze I strongly disagree. I think that when you call things a holocaust or call doctors baby murderers or whatever, I think those words actually mean things. And yes, use of that language can and does result in violence.

edited 30th Jan '11 2:27:46 PM by Karmakin

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve

Then as the person who can make the choice on whether baby gets to breathe or not, it's the doctor's call. And like I said, when baby starts breathing, they're human with all the rights that come with it. I said "whichever comes first", not "whichever comes last".

Seriously, the woman whose body is compromised and the medical professional caring for said body - IN THAT ORDER - are the only people who deserve any damn say at all in the matter, and the second one ONLY if the first one asks for their opinion. That's right guys. You want a say over what a woman can do with her uterus? Go to med school, become an obstetrician, and wait politely until an expecting mother asks for your feedback. Until then STFU, it's not your call.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

This, quite well put.

Edit: Who knows, you might be an abysmal shot?

edited 30th Jan '11 2:35:14 PM by Barkey

Wait...we have a second abortion threads now?

And I can't believe it...this is the first time I ever found myself agreeing with Barkey...

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Anyways...

But no one on your side is ever doing anything to stop them either. Whenever stuff like that happens, pro-lifers just say that individual does not have anything to do with them. But not once did anyone say "how about NOT firebombing clinics and committing all sorts of crimes?"

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More importantly, NONE of those republicans who support this movement better be men...I can't see how men could possibly have any rights opposing something that only has an effect on women. Support? Fine, everyone have girlfriends, daughters, sisters, wives. Oppose? No.

edited 30th Jan '11 2:38:47 PM by Signed

"Every opinion that isn't mine is subjected to Your Mileage May Vary."

Just as a good example I'd like to provide...

It's kind of like being trapped under a boulder at a national park, in the middle of nowhere, and deciding to cut off a pinned limb to escape. Not something anyone particularly wants to do, but sometimes you do something risky to end up under that boulder, and sometimes you just have shitty luck and it falls on you for no reason, or in the case of rape, someone pushed that boulder onto you so they could steal something valuable from you.

^

They shouldn't try to perpetuate said policy about it if the Supreme Court tells the leftists that they decided such a policy will not be put in place.

edited 30th Jan '11 2:40:05 PM by Barkey

^^^ I'm not great with how politics work in america, but...isn't that more of a rightist thing?

Lefties are stereotypically all about capital punishments and immigrants.

Also, I can't believe how different the arguments in this thread is compared to the first abortion thread...

^ That's what people call a "hypothetical situation".

edited 30th Jan '11 2:42:06 PM by Signed

"Every opinion that isn't mine is subjected to Your Mileage May Vary."

Earthquake? Slight shift in terrain? Careless animal or person who didn't mean any harm?

In case you didn't completely figure it out, I was making a parallel to having unsafe sex, having contraceptives fail, and getting raped, and what people would think of you based on how you got into that situation in the first place.

^

Maybe that's because I normally don't touch these topics with a 20 foot pole, but felt some Conservative representation was needed in here this time.

edited 30th Jan '11 2:42:48 PM by Barkey

I'd look down on someone having unsafe sex wanting an abortion, but shit, if you use a condom, she's on the shot/pill, you pull out, and pretty much take every possible precaution, I won't judge. Bad luck, they took every safety precaution because they knew they weren't ready.

Normal sex can be grounds for an abortion too you know...look at the other abortion thread.

Economic situation, age, health, whether the mother is ready for it, faulty birth control(none are 100%), etc.

edited 30th Jan '11 2:49:10 PM by Signed

"Every opinion that isn't mine is subjected to Your Mileage May Vary."

Means there's a need for better methods of contraception. Something that anti-abortion groups are generally against.

edited 30th Jan '11 2:50:40 PM by Karmakin

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve

And I mean shit, I guess I could say this makes me the true Conservative here, I'm on the side of maintaining the status quo set by Roe V Wade.

It just seems hypocritical that most people of the same political ideology that gets so heated about abortion are the same people that compensate me for being sent to foreign countries to kill brown people. Thou Shalt Not Kill indeed.

Umm, you shooting people does have a bit of an effect on their bodies, and since everyone should get a say on what happens to their bodies I would think it only fair they have the right to disagree. Since they're born humans/taxpayers/citizens and have that whole social contract thing going on, I would imagine the police would be entitled if not obligated to voice their concern with your behaviour too.

Sorry, friend, but that's just grasping. The consequences of decriminalizing murder of born humans are worse than the consequences of criminalizing it. The consequences of decriminalizing abortion are not worse than the consequences of criminalizing it. Them's the breaks.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

Why make either the victim or the government pay for the abortion. Why not fine the rapist and use that money for it? And make them pay for any trauma related treatments/medical expenses as a result of injuries during the rape as well. On top of their jail sentences of course.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

I totally agree with that, just like how if you get in a car accident the person responsible pays for it.

But what if the Rapist essentially does a hit and run, and is not caught?

Then we come to this discussion, unfortunately. I don't have an answer there. I do think the government should help, thats one of the horrible experiences that the wider community should chip in to try to help with. Thats a very philosophical viewpoint but I think its valid here.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

@OOZE:If the fetus can be considered to have a separate body at all, yes.

But then just because hunting has an effect on a deer's body doesn't mean you're not allowed to hunt.

edited 30th Jan '11 2:58:27 PM by BlackHumor

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

Does indeed, which is why the mother, whose body and decision making get preference because the alternatives are worse, gets to decide if the fetus' body should be protected or not. See, my rule of thumb works quite nicely.

@ Chainsaw: That's actually a good idea, and an easy political sell too. If the rapist isn't caught yet, big deal, we'll charge him once he is. He will already owe the state some time when we catch his ass, might as well owe us the abortion fee too.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.