Is this the best name for this? (New Crowner 9.26): Black And White Beauty

I know it was just launched, but I first saw the name and confused it for something along the lines of Black-and-White Morality, as though it was about "Good Beauty Evil Beauty". Perhaps we could rename it to a shortened version of the line from Snow White (which you can see as the page quote).

I guessed the meaning, though that may be because I'd seen it in the TRS discussion for Eerie Pale-Skinned Brunette.

I don't personally think there's a great need to change it, unless a lot of people have a problem with it.

edited 22nd Jan '11 3:32:44 AM by DoktorvonEurotrash

I don't think it's a very good name, certainly. I wasn't sure what it meant till I clicked. Perhaps simply Beautiful Pale Skinned Brunette, to contrast with Eerie Pale-Skinned Brunette?

That seems to me to be a good suggestion. I didn't really have any idea what to expect from the name alone , but I was tending toward "the tendency of costume designers to use black, white, or black-and-white when an outfit is intended to be beautiful"

As the person who put up the YKTTW (I was without a computer for much of the chrismas season, forgot about it and someone launched it) there were a lot of titles suggested China Doll Features, China Doll Complexion, Porcelain Doll Complexion, and Raven Haired Porcelain Complexioned Beauty.

but the title I had first was Raven Haired Fair Skinned Beauty which was kind of clunky but it worked.

edited 22nd Jan '11 4:38:30 PM by Raso

Snow White Beauty Standard?

Oooh, I like that one.

I would be hesitant to use it as a trope namer since it is far into a Forgotten Trope in the western world its huge in Eastern Cultures.

I guess it could work though.

Kind of mad that it hasnt grabbed nearly as many examples from anime though... Its a stock character look in harems.

edited 22nd Jan '11 4:55:25 PM by Raso

It's not a Forgotten Trope in Western Culture. It's still a rather firm standard of beauty. Goths for example exult in it and for a more classic example look at Rita Von Squeeze. It's still seen as a classic and glamorous beauty in Western Culture, but it tends to be associated with being so in kind of a neo-retro way.

Heck, it was just glorified on CSI this week which means it's currently still mainstream and relevant.

edited 22nd Jan '11 4:56:19 PM by shimaspawn

I don't think it's anywhere near forgotten in Western Culture. If anything, it's coming to the forefront again in recent years, between the "Suntans increase the chance of skin cancer" push of the last two decades (which did a lot of damage to the "golden-tanned sun-blonde" beauty standard) and both the Retro and Goth subcultures.

edited 22nd Jan '11 5:00:02 PM by Madrugada

I guess we can pretty much rewrite the first paragraph then.

Add in the current vampire fad, and yes, it's quite popular right now. The trope needs some rewriting.

edited 22nd Jan '11 5:03:06 PM by shimaspawn

Yeah I had originally wrote it as an explicit counterpart to Eerie Pale-Skinned Brunette back when there was a thread here about getting rid of the word eerie in it since some anime examples didnt qualify and we pretty much came to the conclusion that it was a forgotten trope in the western world being that any of the intended examples are set in or written pre-1900s (everything else was under "eerie")... Not one person brought this up in YKTTW too.

edited 22nd Jan '11 5:11:09 PM by Raso

Yeah, it looks like I glanced at it and made a comment about Snow White being in the wrong place, but a lot of times I just scan YKTT Ws as I'm going down the list. Sorry about not brining it up sooner, but I'm surprised that with the comments about it being popular in Goth culture and the number of modern western examples you have it didn't occur to you that it might not be all that forgotten.

I was without a computer for most of Christmas and someone launched it. (the pic I had up there was pretty much a placeholder till I could find better too as much as I love Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei the pic isnt the best... The snow white one might work but then it might take over the page as Name, Quote and Image.) Did ya want to do the rewrite?

Anyway Snow White Beauty Standard works I guess.

edited 22nd Jan '11 5:16:32 PM by Raso

I can take a crack at it. I've got a couple other things on my plate right now, but I'll see what I can do.

EDIT: Tweaked the definition and added a couple of examples. Will do more later.

edited 22nd Jan '11 5:24:10 PM by shimaspawn

What about Monochromatic Beaty?

Monochromatic means 'all one color', not 'black-and-white'.

Snow White Design, maybe? Regardless, I think the name really does need to be changed. I thought something along the lines of "villains are ugly, heroes are beautiful".

I vote for the current title. It has the virtue of being simple.

As it is a very common standard of beauty with a wide variety of different undertones of meaning, I'd avoid culture-specific and subculture-specific terms like "eerie," "doll," or "Snow White." All of those are very Western except perhaps the tie between "eerie" and some Eastern supernatural beauty tropes, like the Onryo. Plus, Snow White had very rosy cheeks, which is not always part of the standard.

It's better to avoid a trope name that would cause people to limit which works they think it applies to due to cultural baggage. Also, anything over 4-5 syllables or 20+ letters is getting too wordy.

Alternately, I suggest the following:

• Dark Hair Pale Beauty
• Pale Brunette
• Dark And Light Beauty
• Dark Hair Fair Skin ( <—— I like this one best. )

edited 1st Feb '11 1:54:39 PM by Kurtulmak

"It's better to avoid a trope name that would cause people to limit which works they think it applies to due to cultural baggage."

Um, that is the reason I proposed the rename, because "black and white" is an idiom unrelated to this trope.

Hmmm.... How to best rephrase what I meant.

It's better to have a trope that makes people think it covers more than it does so that they'll click on it and read it than to have a trope that makes people think it means less than it does and spawn a host of "almost the same but not quite" sister tropes to cover the gap.

Either way, replacing "black" with "dark" and "white" with "fair/light" would remove most of that baggage without narrowing the trope.

edited 1st Feb '11 1:59:07 PM by Kurtulmak

Raven Hair Fair Skin comes to mind.

the name I suggested back when this came up the first time around was Raven Hair, Ivory Skin

That's fine too.