PlayStation 3 rootkey shitstorm grows

Someone apparently doesn't know what a dev-kit actually is.

Alternate:

Hahahahaha no.

Who's the one getting frustrated and upset here? You (collectively) have this great moral outrage thing going against the Evil Sony for taking away your freedom to mod the PS 3, but you have yet to demonstrate any actual harm from this to the typical consumer. You can't flip the argument around and make me the aggressor and then claim some kind of victory, as if you win arguments by making the least sense.

Again, the only opinion I'm representing is my own. I'm not morally outraged by Sony's actions because, as I said before, they are not being evil; they are panicking. And the Stooges act they pull right now - like reinforcing the Streisand Effect by trying to sue the keys off the entire internet - is entertaining in a train wreck kind of way.

That said, the one thing that does legitimately piss off is the marginalization of criticism. Saying that the restriction of freedom to do with your hardware what you want to doesn't bother you is fair game. Saying only an irrelevant minority / dirty pirates / PC snobs / the collective internet hatedom are arguing the contrary isn't. I'm not arguing on the behalf of the homebrew hive mind and neither does anyone here argue for the "typical customer" hive mind.

^^ So what you're saying is its not so much that they want to make games as it is they want to make this a semantic argument instead of being satisfied with a piece of commeercial software far exceeding the capabilities of homebrew dev kits.

Who is this "they"? You're starting to sound paranoid, there.

I've already gone into Little Big Planet 2. Do we really need to retread the same ground?

This isn't a semantic argument. LBP 2 is a game that happens to include a level editor. It allows you to make levels for LBP 2. That's not a devkit, and you'd know that if you knew anything about game development.

(Edit to add: After doing a bit more research, yes, they're very detailed levels, and you have access to some quite impressive capabilities not normal for a level editor, but you're still limited by what the console game gives you to work with. You can't rewrite the engine, create new rendering systems, import a physics engine you're more familiar with, or anything like that. I'm fairly sure ccoa would have gone into more detail on this than I can or care to, as I currently have to get to work. Making games.)

A devkit is a system that allows for development of games, period. Not development of levels for a game, the ability to create entirely new games. This is something that currently is fairly costly on the Playstation side.

What was requested was a development suite, probably with limitations (such as a maximum resource limit) imposed to keep things within an independent development size, creating an extra tier in PSN development. Call it an independent developer's budget system to get into the platform. Something that costs less than four figures would be nice.

edited 28th Feb '11 1:10:27 PM by GoggleFox

edit: just said the same thing Goggle Fox said. LOL still.

edited 28th Feb '11 1:24:53 PM by chocoboxxx

@ Indigo:

So does that make Wario Ware: DIY a DS dev-kit then?

No no guys, the best devkit was Maxis Klik & Play!

Actually, LBP 2's creation feature can make stand-alone games in many different genres, not just levels. It is a fairly impressive engine all things considered.

But it is an engine, not a dev kit. No matter how clever it is, it is ultimately limited in what it can do. I bumped up against those limitations myself fairly early on playing around in it. It may be what some, or even most, amateur game developers are looking for, but it isn't a way to truly learn to make games and it doesn't give one the skills one needs if you are looking to one day develop games commercially.

I was a member of the amateur game development community for many years. I am intimately aware that there is a dedicated element among them who are not only doing it for fun, they are looking for the practical skills to learn how to make commercial games and one day break into that industry. An engine like LBP 2 is a good place to start, but for them it's a toy that they'll outgrow. They're the ones who want to homebrew because they're not looking for "easy", they're looking for more power/experience/control.

Something between "toy" and "$1500 commercial development kit" is what I was speaking of when I said dev kit.

And it also came out before this really came to a head, so it can't work as an olive branch, either. ;)

edited 28th Feb '11 1:37:05 PM by ccoa

Call it an independent developer's budget system to get into the platform. Something that costs less than four figures would be nice.

So something that been around for two years that costs them zero?

edited 28th Feb '11 2:06:43 PM by IndigoDingo

Your link is broken.

edited 28th Feb '11 2:03:59 PM by ccoa

The difference is not as big as you think though.

To keep using the PS 3 dev kit as an example, when you buy the dev kit you have to buy one for every person using one, assuming an average team of 5 developers who all need one that would mean you now have to pay 10,000$ (2,000 times 5), it sounds like a lot but look at how business works, you spend money then you make it back.

Now the average full size (Fat Princess to Spolsin Man) down-loadable game will cost about 10$, this means you have to sell 1000 copies of your game to break even. In the world of business 1000 copies literally means nothing, this is also helped by the fact that most small indie developers don't pay each other salaries, meaning the cost of development won't go above 10,000. And if you raise the price by a measly five dollars you now have to only sell around 670 copies, almost half for just five more dollars.

If you've outgrown things like LBP 2 and RPG Maker you should be able to produce something that sell a 1000-670 copies, and even less if you reduce the dev team or only buy a few for the ones who need it.

It talks more about the Pub Fund Sony made to encourage indie development.

The Pub Fund essentially gives you a rebate of 25-35% of the dev costs up to 500,000$ meaning using the 10,000 model above you'll get about 2,500 back. This further reduces the dev costs meaning you'll only have to sell 750(10$) to 50(15$) copies, and if you really can't meet 750 or 670 then there's obviously something wrong with your product.

edited 28th Feb '11 2:18:04 PM by WORLDTree

And like my link says, if you take Sony up on their offer you need to sell a big fat zero to make your money back.

Assuming that you can jump from an engine that holds your hand and doesn't require any programming experience right to a dev kit and produce commercial quality work displays a rather extreme ignorance.

And, while you do have to spend money to make money, I am still talking about non-commercial developers, most of whom are students and don't have $10,000 or even $2,000 lying around. There is currently no tool between LBP 2 and commercial, and there really aught to be.

From Sony's point of view, this would be a very good thing - getting prospective programmers a way to get their feet wet means that companies can get ahold of people already partially trained on the commercial dev kit, which in turn can mean more games faster for Sony.

^ In what world does 25-35% translate to making your money back?

edited 28th Feb '11 2:25:01 PM by ccoa

That's not "free" then, is it?

X Box 360 is offering XNA development studio for free. To get one of your games onto the Live network, you need to submit a finished game under 150 MB in size for review, and you need to be a member of the App Hub network — a price of $99 per year, or $0 per year if you're a student under their Dream Spark system.

That is what we're talking about. Few people have the available resources to go out and buy a multi-thousand-dollar rig so they can build a game. A cost lower than that of one's monthly bills for a year of service is more reasonable for a start-up.

^^ Where did you get 25 to 35% when it says 100%?

Your link is broken. It cannot be read, Dingo. Ergo we do not know what you are talking about.

Besides, it's not really for start-ups in the traditional sense of the word, as I've read elsewhere — you have to be making a title of high quality (many of the developers requesting the fund were turned away for this reason), you still have to pay into the setup to begin with and only get reimbursed later. Also, you have to be producing a new title that will be exclusively for PSN, for an as-yet-unspecified amount of time. The use of the word "royalty" in summaries of the agreement makes me feel like you're only getting paid back through the system and not being handed the lump sum of your labor back. I can't find any further information on it from a Sony source, only mass media, most of which is two years old.

edited 28th Feb '11 2:30:56 PM by GoggleFox

Also, the only mentions I can find about the Pub Fund are a bunch of news articles referring to the original announcement. I can't find a single page with details.

edited 28th Feb '11 2:36:31 PM by storyyeller

It's a rebate of 25-35% not 100%

And it's called a small loan, nearly every business ever had to get one to get started, and the difference between XNA and the Sony dev-kit is the Sony kit is a one-time purchase, hence why it is higher, so with XNA if you make 3 games over the course of 3 years with three dev kits then that's 900 dollars, also the Dream Spark program gives one year of free XNA.

Also XNA is no easier then any other Dev Kit, it's still a box of code you have to write and will not help fresh people anymore then any other dev kit.

It's a one-year exclusivity deal same as what Microsoft has with a lot of developers, the minimum level of quality is Burn Zombie Burn, and if you can't make something at least to that level then you need to improve your product.

edited 28th Feb '11 2:42:41 PM by WORLDTree

In other words: Developers who want to make a freeware game in their spare time and can't shell out the cash for the devkit are boned.

Especially if the game they want to make has to be freeware if it's a fan remake of an existing game. Money is not allowed to be involved in those cases.

What sources I found on the Pub Fund reported less than half (20-40%) would be rebated.

XNA is no easier, true, but it is cheaper short-term. Hence, lower barrier to entry, allowing you to experiment without having to commit to game development full-time.

A $2000 dev kit (while lower than it was at the system's launch) is only a practical investment if PS 3 game development is your job.

EDIT: I have not found a source that says "match". Link?

edited 28th Feb '11 2:45:34 PM by Tangent128

I repeat, where are you getting 25 to 35%? The term match means actually being equal to the dev costs.

If it's just for your spare time do it on the PC, there are more friendly kits out there with a UI that'll help you more then any console dev kit.

And once again, get a small loan like everyone else who wants to start a small business.

EDIT: Well I hate to break it to you but most developers will only hire if it's your job, entering the game industry is like entering most other entertainment industries, you have to live, eat, and breath the subject, you don't just get in because you're "good", with the amount of money riding on most projects you have to be "great", it's why most people won't even hire for "Developer" unless you have five years experience, you have to commit a lot of effort if you want to actually go anywhere in the field.

edited 28th Feb '11 2:51:00 PM by WORLDTree

We're not talking about people who want to enter the industry, much less start a business. We're talking about hobbyists.

Where would the world be if you had to pay thousands of dollars to compose music for a guitar? If taking a photo through custom lenses could get you sued for violating your camera's EULA? If only dues-paying directors could put on a school play?

If the only way to develop games is to be employed by a developer, then the only way to learn to develop games is to be employed by a developer. In which case, you lose tons of people who could have been "great", but never found out they were because they never got a chance to try.

^^^^Try looking at the link I gave. Where did you find a source that actually said 25 to 35%?