Trying to reconcile my Christian Deism with other religions.

But it isn't proper evidence. There's no reason whatsoever to assume that God made the universe, there are zillions of other possible explanations for that.

I guess I'm just resentful of what I perceive to be an expectation that people will just up and convert to Christianity, and if they don't they're assholes and they deserve to fry.

If souls obeyed proper logic, they wouldn't exist. <- materialist

Not saying "lots of people did it" is a good reason in itself, but why can't existence of the universe suggest that something made it? Not saying that is the case, necessarily, but I haven't seen much (yet) to disprove the idea.

lol burden of proof

Bobby nobody's said anything about anybody being assholes. Stop interpreting it that way, it looks dumb.

edited 13th Jan '11 10:36:29 AM by melloncollie

And why should the soul not obey logic?

People don't tend to strictly obey logic. Maybe you hold it as an ideal, but even you will have your irrational biases.

"Something" ≠ God. Yes, God might have made the universe. Or it might have been some other god. Or it might have been something else altogether.

Edit: OK, I'll stop saying "asshole" and say "morally wrong". Is that better?

Unless the suggestion is that they're actually good people but they deserve to fry, which is even more horrible.

edited 13th Jan '11 10:39:31 AM by BobbyG

I took «'Cos Christianity's not about reasoning, 'ts why. Souls don't obey proper logic, as far as I know.» to mean the existence of souls and such, not souls understood as people/actors.

edited 13th Jan '11 10:39:59 AM by Tzetze

Asshole vs. morally wrong: Yeah, I suppose that's more accurate. Don't take "morally wrong" as a personal insult, though. Plenty of nice well-intentioned people can be morally wrong (depending on your moral system).

Then I suppose my quarrel is with God, not with Christians, although I find their devotion to such a God bewildering. But I guess that's not really relevent to this topic.

My feeling on that whole matter is that the belief in some sort of afterlife torment for those who don't share you beliefs can be seen as being morally bad. To be specific, that's belief as in supporting such an idea. (I guess you could technically believe that it exists but morally oppose it, although I've never really met anybody that falls into that camp)

I do feel that at the end of the day it's quite the dehumanizing thing, and it can really amplify the unfortunate tribalism that can come from some religions.

edited 13th Jan '11 10:45:22 AM by Karmakin

@ Bobby: That's the way I see it, yeah.

@ Karmakin: Dunno about "morally opposing", but I know there are people who believe in hell existing but don't like the idea that it exists.

Personally I don't feel that it's dehumanizing. I'd probably try to make hell-goers' time on earth as nice as possible.

edited 13th Jan '11 10:51:19 AM by melloncollie

Is it just me or did a mod assist on derailing an OTC just now?

O_o

Ahem. Another option is the whole concept of purgatory; people that don't believe in the J-man sit there in a place that's rather uncomfortable, but not outright torture, for a bit until they repent for their alleged sins.

We were talking about the attitudes of Christians towards other religions. Although I guess the attitude I was objecting to was not Chagen's attitude.

Ah, I get it now. I think that the people you are encountering are displaying evidence of a "pre-conventional" stage of moral development (that is morality is based on fixed and absolute rules- the intent of the person acting is not considered). Of course, this is objectionable in any adult, not just Christians.

So they aren't saying you're a douche, they're telling you you broke the rules of the universe. It's silly and immature, but they still aren't intending to insult you.

Yes, I understand the distinction now. Sorry about earlier.

This was a while back, but why is it a philosophical copout to believe that nonbelievers and sinners can get into Heaven? I at least believe that you can get in no matter what your religious beliefs, as long as you're a fundamentally good person. And this isn't common to all Christianity, but the idea that even in hell, if you truly repent you can be free, is actually quite common.

Indeed, I'd have thought that made quite a lot of sense given the emphasis Jesus places on forgiveness in the Bible.

"Well, to most people, believing in another religion means saying God doesn't exist. Which is insulting to him."

I cannot, in good faith, bring statistics into this, but I imagine that people who are serious about piety and reverence tend to theorize, whatever their personal denomination might be, that different religions are simply different paths to the same omnibelevolent entity. It can be hard to look past the trappings of tradition and code, but it's insensible to think that salvation is restricted by place or time, as it must be in a world in which any religion is literally true.

I believe that was C.S. Lewis' view.

Although I'm primarily inferring this from The Last Battle. >_>

Lion Jesus won't put up with ethnocentrist bullshit. Good people are good people.

To be fair to Chagen's statement, there is a solid precedent for thinking that way. The Old Testament is very explicit about idolatry being sinful, and Christianity has centuries of proselytism to its name. I personally cannot see the logic behind espousing such a view, but it's evidently not as rare as we might want it to be.

I just have one random thing to say:

Bobby G:

I have absolutely no reason to believe that the Judeo-Christian God exists.

Neither do I (quite often I think about it, and I see that there is no logical or sensible reason to believe in him), yet I still believe anyway.

Anyway, as for your "God should show himself to me if he wants me to believe him" thing, I think that God actually showing up would cause way too much chaos to be a logical situation. He's better suited to a Chessmaster role.

Chagen, that is fine for you. You have your beliefs, and I have mine. I don't think I could change mine just because somebody told me they were morally wrong and wouldn't give a convincing reason why, nor do I think I would want to. I'm sure you feel the same way, or similarly.