Puella Magi Madoka Magica

There's two important things you seem to be missing here. First, the part where I said that the show deliberately leaves the relationships open to interpretation, i.e. it's not wrong to believe that Sayaka and Kyouko aren't and/or shouldn't be together (many people feel that way about Madoka/Homura, including, er, Homura).

Second... do you really expect to convince anyone with over-the-top lines like that one, and ginormous walls of text from previous flamewars? Or are you just trying to start arguments? The entire fandom knows how you feel about those two characters at this point. We really don't need to go through this again.

Wow, this Sereg guy is even worse than I am when it comes to condemning characters...

I believe that those who say that about Madoka/Homura have very good reasons I happen to agree with. (Whether it's enough to actively condemn their relationship is something I'm more on the fence about)

That said, I do consider it morally wrong to believe that Sayaka and Kyouko should be together and I've explained why. Though I've actually continually understated it. When someone says "I ship Kyouko/Sayaka", to me, its the equivalent of someone saying, "I think raping people is a good idea". It may be their opinion, but that doesn't make it a morally acceptable one. Because Kyouko actively threatens rape on screen to Sayaka's face.

If Kyouko was a boy, almost everyone who saw the relationship would rightfully call out anyone who shipped them as being disgusting. People's desire for yuri has led them to willfully ignore how revolting the ship is and utterly ignore how terrible a person Kyouko is. And I find that disgusting.

No, I don't expect to convince anyone. I believe that it's likely that everyone who sees it will be too entrenched in their own willful ignorance to accept reality. However, I hope that I'm wrong.

i see nothing over the top about the line. It is an understatement of my actual views. If you ship someone with someone they threatened rape to, you are basically violating human rights by validating all the abuse that victims have suffered.

I'm not trying to start arguments. I'm trying to express how I feel, promote understanding, answer the question I was asked and clarify the reality that keeps being missed by people. If your statement were true, I'd have never have been asked the question in the first plac which makes you demonstrably wrong. The fact that you called something I said an over-the-top statement also proves that you yourself don't understand my feelings. Again, I have not once ever expressed how truly deep my loathing for the ship and how morally degenerate I think shipping it is.

EDIT: And we have another demonstration of how my feelings aren't as well known as claimed. Incidentally, could you tell me about what you condemn.

edited 7th Apr '17 12:02:02 PM by Sereg

WTF are you talking about? Kyoko was an asshole at first but she never tried to commit rape. She mentioned about breaking her boyfriends hand to get her to fight and disagreed with her actions about Witches. That's a long shot between rape dude. Also remember the episode where she mentioned her tragic past and Sakura was being nice to her and the fact that she killed herself to defeat Sayaka's witch and also wanted her to live and to snap her out of her mental breakdown unlike Homura who tried to kill her?

Just stop. I don't care if you're trolling or not but it's time to stop.

You clearly didn't read what I posted before:

"Kyouko told Sayaka to break all of Kyousuke's limbs and "make him yours". That's advocating maiming someone to the point of helplessness and sexually forcing yourself on them. That's what "make him yours" means. She then offered to do it for her. So yes, she just threatened to torture and rape someone Sayaka loves."

Yes, she did threaten rape.

Even if she didn't, the rest of what she does would have been plenty.

You mean the episode where she mentioned her past whose tragicness is utterly irrelevant, would be morally wrong to consider relevant and would be morally wrong to accept as an excuse for her crimes and then Sayaka rejected her stolen apple and then Kyouko responded by strangling her as an act of abuse showing that her "redemption" is fake and where she tried to tell Sayaka that her criminal way of doing things is the right way and Sayaka's way of being a decent person is wrong and Sayaka should stop being a decent person and instead become a thug like Kyouko? Yes, I apparently remember that episode better than you do.

Which undoes literally zero of her previous atrocities.

She tried to change Sayaka from a wonderful being into something awful like herself. I don't consider that "snapping her out of her mental breakdown" but abuse.

Hypocritical to say that in the same post where you make a bunch of invalid claims proving you did not read my argument.

Your feelings are very well known. I condemn the fact that you think that Kyouko is a monster who will never change, when the series has shown ample evidence against that, AND has actually given Kyouko enough Character Development to make it believable.

By Sereg's logic I suppose we should also still treat Kyueby as a cute and nice mascot character since that's what he first appeared to be {Especially in the manga adaptation, where he's way more quirky and cute at first}, instead of the manipulative and selfish bastard he truly is. Character Development and plot twists, what the hell are those?

Guys, this has nothing to do with canon validity. Serag identifies with Sayaka so much he'll refuse to let up on defenses like this. That's why these discussions with him are unpleasant to read.

More to the point, Sereg believes that "you are what you are at your very worst, and nothing will ever change that".

edited 7th Apr '17 1:00:52 PM by JG98

Again, Kyouko continually abused Sayaka even after her supposed Character Development, meaning she hasn't actually changed enough. Though that's not the point. I believe Kyouko does change (thus proving that you don't know my beliefs at all). My point is actually that even if Kyouko changed to no longer be abusive, the fact that she was in the past to Sayaka, means that she should never be with Sayaka ever.

Nope. I'm not saying that people are only the first thing they appear to be. I'm saying that people are only and entirely the worst thing they ever have been and ever will be.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one Sereg.

And on that note, we should move on.

One Strip! One Strip!

See? I understand your feelings perfectly. Yeah, let's just ignore that people CAN redeem themselves, right?

edited 7th Apr '17 1:08:30 PM by JG98

That's where you're wrong. Because I accept that people can be redeemed. What others apparently fail to realise though is that it never undoes your past. Your past remains for eternity. Kyouko abused Sayaka, so no matter what she does in trying to redeem herself, that never changes, so they should never be together.

As for my identification with Sayaka, that just makes me the most qualified to assess whether or not she'd be happy with Kyouko (Spoiler: Se wouldn't as I wouldn't and we're practically the same)

Dude, now you're just backpedalling on what you said yourself. You DID say that "you are what you are at your worst".

True, the past can't be changed. And nobody here is saying that Kyouko didn't do bad things. I'm just saying that since she DID change for the better and showed genuine repetance, I think we can drop the grudges and cut her some slack.

Also, dude, you're not Sayaka. And Sayaka had her flaws as well. Stop treating her like she's some sort of Purity Sue or self-insert.

Yes, I did. When you redeem yourself, you make sure that you stop getting even worse than you already were. For example, Kyouko redeemed herself by killing herself means she's exactly as vile as she was in the past. If she didn't do that, it would have increased her vileness. Redeeming yourself stops your vileness from increasing. It doesn't make it decrease. Nothing can make your vileness decrease.

I cut her some slack b saying she should no longer be executed on the spot, which is what she should be at any point prior to that. Prior to that point, leaving her alive is a crime against existence. After she repents, it's okay to no longer punish her. It is still evil to expose Sayaka romantically to the person who abused her. Why don't we cut Sayaka some slack.

All her flaws are things I consider things that make her a better person. Yes, I'm not Sayaka. I heavily identify with her. I see things the way she does. I agree with every one of her decisions. I understand her better than anyone. She is my role model. I actively try to emulate her. I completely adore her. I see her as practical perfection. She awes me. I am infatuated by her. I want to marry someone like her. I want to protect her from horrible people like Kyouko. Yes, that makes me biased. But it also means I get her.

Well then, everyone has vileness in them. Guess we're all going to Hell no matter how much we try to get better.

"All her flaws are things I consider things that make her a better person."

"I see her as practical perfection."

Isn't THAT a contradiction? If she has flaws, then she can't be perfect.

Also... no, dude, you DON'T get her. If you did, you'd understand that Sayaka has made mistakes as well, else she wouldn't have become a Witch.

Please lets stop.

Nothing good can come from this.

One Strip! One Strip!

"Practical" perfection like 'practically perfect in every way'. ie. as close to perfection as you can get. Also, her flaws are things I consider to result in an overall improve final product.

Firstly, you don't have to make a single mistake to become a witch. That's part of the point of the show. That people are screwed over despite not having done anything to deserve or cause it. Secondly, I know she made mistakes. I happen to agree with them despite knowing they were mistakes.And yes, I get her as I understand and agree with her decisions and believe they should be emulated. The fact that I agree with all her decisions is proof that I do get her.

Forgive me if I'm somewhat skeptical of that. "I agree with all of this character's decisions, therefore I totally get them" doesn't strike me as very sound logic. There's more to a character than that.

edited 7th Apr '17 4:13:13 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!

It's proof that we think the same way.

EDIT: I mean, I agree with her internal monologues as well.

edited 7th Apr '17 4:16:16 PM by Sereg

Not necessarily. You might arrive at the same conclusions as her, but the thought process behind them could be very different.

Oh God! Natural light!

She explains her thought processes and I agree with them

*checks the thread, eyes cross*

uh

edited 7th Apr '17 5:34:59 PM by Oceanstuck

i guess you can watch me shitpost i guess

So any news about that new season/movie/whatever-the-hell it-is in production?

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They

Either the previous vandals are back at the Lesyay page, or a new third party is repeating their mistakes.

I have reverted the vandalism.

edit: Wow, what an obvious ban evader. Hey mods, drop the permaban crusher on tipeditor and tipeditor TEMP.

edited 8th Apr '17 1:43:09 AM by AceOfScarabs

The three finest things in life are to splat your enemies, drive them from their turf, and hear their lamentations as their rank falls!