Buffy the Vampire Slayer

https://www.thewrap.com/joss-whedon-feminist-hypocrite-infidelity-affairs-ex-wife-kai-cole-says/

Here's Joss' wife's story on the subject, which seems to be "just" rampant adultery and lying that was very upsetting to her (for SOME reason). So we know exactly what he was doing.

The abuse she suffered was the fact he hid the many affairs from her.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jul 25th 2018 at 1:23:41 AM

Beyond his wife however there remains the basic fact that he used his positon as a famous male feminist to pressure younger women into relationships with him that had a serious power imbalance.

He exploited his positon of power over younge women, not as severely as many cases but still severely enough that he really shouldn’t be allowed near a show about empowering younge women again, not unless he wants a guest spot as a villain.

Edited by Silasw on Jul 25th 2018 at 10:40:23 AM

Glossing over the "Joss Whedon is the real monsters" talk...

"Reboot" is such a worrisome word because that makes me think of a Continuity Reboot rather than a straight up sequel series.

A new version of Buffy sounds terrible and like it can only harm the brand.

However, a sequel series down the line starring a new Slayer/dealing with the mass empowering event at the end of BTVS could work. And yes, I know the comics did that but... the comics A: Aren't relevant to 99% of people and B: Kinda suffered from a lack of oversight. I think that Joss needs some executive meddling to keep himself in line.

Edited by Larkmarn on Jul 25th 2018 at 9:17:27 AM

Right well, there's a new showrunner in Monica-Owusu Breen, so unless executive producers have more power than I think they do, any problems with Joss in relation to this reboot will probably be mitigated.

I skimmed some of Buffy Season 8 an hour ago actually. It uh... it... it's interesting. I mean, I haven't finished Buffy so I was going in pretty blind, but the idea of a private organization of Slayers numbering in the hundreds - instead of whatever secret cabinet of Slayers and Watchers there were before - and operating like a private army is interesting.

Honestly I think that would've been a better route for a sequel series than just rebooting the entire thing. Writing about a different Slayer with different relationships in a part of the world that wasn't Sunnydale would've been interesting, and could have opened the door to a couple of crossovers. Instead it's going to be lined up next to the old one.

Edited by Soble on Jul 25th 2018 at 7:27:36 AM

I don't want a new series.

I want a Continuity Reboot because Buffy without Xander, Willow, and Giles isn't Buffy.

A Continuity Reboot won't give us that, not really. I'd much rather they play new characters of their own, and leave open the door for the original characters to cameo.

Well Buffy the Vampire Slayer is like Batman.

I don't want the adventures of Tim Drake Batman.

I want Bruce Wayne Batman.

And Buffy Summers is Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Kristy Swanson, Sarah Michelle Gellar, or whoever else they cast as her.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jul 25th 2018 at 2:32:21 AM

Well, if that's how you feel. What I liked was that ensemble, though, those actors. I don't think you could or should try and replicate that — what I liked about them was that they grew and changed together, organically, dynamically. Buffy and the Scoobies went through more character development in seven years than Batman has in the last few decades — things happen to Batman, but his fundamental Batman-ness remains the same. Buffy as a show wasn't like that. It was part of that first wave of serialized TV, and was as much soap opera as it was adventure/horror/comedy. So hitting the reset button and recasting everything and riffing on the same stories as before feels like it would do more to turn Buffy into Tim Drake than just teeing up the stakes and crossbows for the next Slayer in line.

Edited by Unsung on Jul 26th 2018 at 6:50:02 AM

I think this reboot is doomed no matter what it does. It's going to be blasted for being diverse, it's going to be blasted for not being diverse enough, it's going to be blasted for not continuing the old series, it's going to be blasted for relying too much on the old series.

On the one hand, it's got some big shoes to fill. On the other hand, I don't think anyone is clamoring for this right now, and blazing straight ahead in light of the various controversies seems shortsighted.

Edited by Unsung on Jul 25th 2018 at 9:26:12 AM

One more problem with rebooting a franchise like Buffy is that it's almost like rebooting Harry Potter or something else with a large modern fanbase. The show is still pretty recent. It only ended fifteen years ago, and it gave way to multiple forms of entertainment that were inspired by it in some way. From the supernatural high school dramas and love triangles such as The Vampire Diaries, Twilight, and Teen Wolf (yes, it's a reboot but you CANNOT tell me that it's not inspired by Buffy) to the Arrowverse shows that follow the season-long Big Bad arc format.

Buffy left a legacy and its presence is still fresh in pop culture. A sequel series would make a lot more sense because it at least gives the universe a chance to expand instead of being completely redone, which would almost completely invalidate it and the fans of the show. Star Trek and many other shows got the chance to have sequels for better or worse. Why can't Buffy get one? It's worthy.

Edited by deuteragonist on Jul 25th 2018 at 5:49:15 AM

I admit, I want to see the characters again.

Just not as they developed necessarily since the show suffered serious Sequelitis.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jul 25th 2018 at 7:03:16 AM

Honestly, sounds like fanfiction is your only recourse. Because even if the show reunited the old cast, given they're in their 40s it... won't be that. Especially if you want to ignore the Seasonal Rot or Shark-Jumping Character Development.

A reboot doesn't mean that the old series fall into the void of nonexistence. It'll always be there. And you'll always be able to revisit it.

Then you'll be happy to know that Joss isn't involved in this.

That article pegged him as "executive producer". That's a fancy-sounding credit that productions give out to financial backers, creators of the source material, and anyone else whose name they are obligated to put on the project but who has no actual creative control over anything.

Based on that credit, Joss's contribution is that Buffy is his character that he created years ago, and he might have kicked some money their way. If he was doing anything more than that, he'd have a real job title. Like writer or director or actual producer.

As for returning characters, I wouldn't hold your breath. This is being made by Fox. There was actually some buzz about it years ago; the people who made the abhorrent Buffy movie are the ones behind this project. Or, at least, they were at the time. Things could have changed over the past few years.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 26th 2018 at 12:28:46 PM

Executive producer is a pretty vague title in terms of how actively involved the holder is. They aren't formally in charge, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're entirely absent, either. When creators are brought in to consult on adaptations of their books/comics/etc, it's usually as an executive producer, and how much the directors and producers listen to them varies based on how much they want to listen, as well as how much pressure the studio puts on them to listen to/ignore whatever is being said. And when people putting a lot of their own money into a work want their name in the credits, it's also usually as an executive producer, and controlling the money can mean substantial sway over the final product, depending how that's set up. The latter isn't relevant other than to say the amount of influence an executive producer has is as vaguely defined/significant/meaningless/political as the title itself. It's a catchall.

The showrunner here is Monica Owusu-Breen, who worked on AOS with Jed Whedon and Maurissa Tancharoen for the first three seasons, so how much Joss is or isn't involved is still kind of up in the air at this point. He's not necessarily a total nonentity. He could be. It's not really clear yet.

Edited by Unsung on Jul 26th 2018 at 6:47:02 AM

Gene Roddenbury was executive producer on Star Trek: The Next Generation and his Executive Meddling was a good part of why the first couple of seasons were so bad. So I'm not going to assume that this executive producer position is a symbolic role without further evidence.

That's... one example. Are there other examples of executive producers specifically messing up a TV show?

The point isn't that executive producers are specifically the ones destroying shows. Any level of executive or producer or director, writer, or star can potentially mess up (or save) a show. But if people have concerns about Joss in particular, being an EP doesn't necessarily mean he's just a figurehead. It still could mean that. But we just don't know.

Edited by Unsung on Jul 26th 2018 at 6:45:30 AM

I'd also like to look to the Charmed Reboot coming out soon to see what might be in store. Charmed was accused repeatedly of ripping off Buffy (I think it came out the year after?) and, since Charmed is getting a new reboot with a W.O.C. main cast, it could be something the showrunners would read the audience reaction of; for better or for worse.

Charmed had its own critique when Holly Marie said, "You know who Hollywood thinks is too old to be show running hot witches? Forty year old women."

Another reboot versus continuation point.

Damned if you do.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jul 26th 2018 at 5:45:36 AM

Charmed was a trainwreck when it ended. It pulled into the station at the end, everyone tumbled out, and went 'We did it guys!' and that's the bare minimum they could say about the series.

A continuation of Buffy is something I COULD see working, even if, yeah, 7 or 8 seasons of continuity to keep track of and some characters who's development would need to be rerailed. At the very least because Buffy at its core was about growing up and maturing so there's still plenty you can pull from there as the characters have to deal with the more complex adult world of maturity and other things.

But Charmed was never about that.

Charmed was a mess. Continuity went off the rails by Season 4 and it was all downhill from there. The characters were horrifically unlikable by Season 5 and beyond. By the end, I don't think there was actually anything worth salvaging from Charmed and that's a big problem for a show.

Especially one that touts itself as 'WE'RE FEMINIST GUYS' since Charmed would have the same problem of the fact that feminism has changed dramatically in 15 years. Charmed just... I don't think there was anything worth continuing in Charmed.

I get the problem with Hollywood writing off older actresses in Hollywood, but I also do think that the actressess in question have so many accusations of being drama queens and divas on set that... Why would you want to resurrect that??? Ever???

The show was a success. It ran for, what? 200 episodes? Seven or eight seasons. That is a success no matter how you cut it.

It doesn't mean you need to get called back every time the series comes up again.

Revival, rather than reboot. I am appeased.

Also, on he subject of Charmed, Monica Owusu-Breen apparently also worked on that.

So, in other words, this is going to be a new continuity. Deal with it.

I suppose that doesn't rule out this being a contemporary "revival" rather than a rebooting of the universe and it's characters, yes.

Cautiously optimistic and waiting to see a trailer.

It's a reboot.

That said, I am entirely fine with it being a reboot and do not share the common frothing hatred of reboots that seems to conspicuously only ever spring up around female-driven launches.