Metroid

I don't really see being easy or linear as a bad thing, but whatever. I'd rather it be easy than "WHAT THE FUCK WHERE AM I SUPPOSED TO GO WHY DO I KEEP BEING KILLED FUCK" like the original.

I mean, there's a difference between being "faithful" and just being unnecessarily frustrating.

edited 27th Dec '10 7:03:15 AM by Electivirus

360 Gamertag: Electivirus. 3DS friend code: 5412-9983-8497. PSN ID: Electivirus. PM me if you add me on any.

If that's the case I won't try to convince you, but really, I think that it is always better for a player to feel frustrated than to feel bored. Most people who bought the original didn't manage to finish it, yet the game sold like hotcakes. I found myself bored with ZM because the game is essentially just about going to point A, then going to point B, then going to point C... without really caring about anything else. In the original you had to be careful with the enemies you met, rationalize your missile supply, etc, otherwise you are dead in no time. Even just approaching the bosses' lairs gave you a feeling of tension in the original. That feeling is lost in ZM. If Nintendo comes to me saying that this game is the remake of a beloved game of mine, and then when I actually play it turns out that it's something completely different, then I'm going to be disappointed and dislike the game no matter what. Simple as that.

edited 27th Dec '10 7:34:03 AM by Ganel

Zero Mission certainly could've done without the "quest compass." Part of the fun in Metroid is exploring and finding your own way in this sprawling labyrinth of caves and tunnels. That feeling is ruined if the game tells you where to go at every step. Apart from that, though, I thought it was pretty good.

Eh. Personally, I like being told where my next destination is.

360 Gamertag: Electivirus. 3DS friend code: 5412-9983-8497. PSN ID: Electivirus. PM me if you add me on any.

I do in many games, but not in a Metroidvania, where the exploration is a critical part of the game.

Honestly, I would love to see Metroidvania games give you destination markers that sometimes just lead you into a trap. "GO HERE!" *you do* "HAHA SUCKER".

Following a linear path in a Metroidvania should be punished.

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

So, you're basically saying that the game should stop railroading you... by railroading you somewhere else?

360 Gamertag: Electivirus. 3DS friend code: 5412-9983-8497. PSN ID: Electivirus. PM me if you add me on any.

I picked up the Metroid Prime Trilogy for the Wii a couple months ago, and I'm loving it.

Searching for plausible mechanisms.

I'm saying that if the game insists on railroading, every now and then it should throw in a dick move, because you're not supposed to be following rails in a Metroidvania.

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

I'd rather not get into an argument about how a game is "supposed" to be played...

^^ Lucky. I tried searching for one on Amazon. Even the used copies are fucking expensive. $89 bucks? wtf?!

edited 27th Dec '10 8:37:12 AM by Electivirus

360 Gamertag: Electivirus. 3DS friend code: 5412-9983-8497. PSN ID: Electivirus. PM me if you add me on any.

Just getting rid of railroading seems to be better, easier and less dickish to me.

I'm cool with that too, but it seems less likely to happen.

That's right. I honestly believe that subverting the railroad is more probable than removing it. People have gotten so used to being told where to go in every game that I don't think the quest arrow will ever fade out of use.

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

I love Metroid: Zero Mission. Perhaps I'm coddled by newer games, but trying to play the original was, for me, like trying to read Chaucer in the original Middle English - probably worth the effort, but with such a great translation available, I was personally too lazy.

Plus, it gave us "All I had for protection was my rather useless emergency pistol", which for me is the iconic Samus Aran line.

Re:Metroid II - 3DS will have a Game Boy Virtual Console. Discuss.

I can't see it not happening, tbh.

360 Gamertag: Electivirus. 3DS friend code: 5412-9983-8497. PSN ID: Electivirus. PM me if you add me on any.

The original Metroid's failing isn't that it was too exploration-based. It was that every room looked exactly the same.

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

While most of the game looks similar due to that black background, rooms had enough differences between themselves, at least for me, to have a clear idea of where I was.

Except in Kraid's lair. That shit is filled with rooms that are literally identical, and they are connected by a bunch of corridors, which also happen to be identical. I just couldn't draw a mental map of the area, and I found Kraid completely by pure luck.

Electivirus, it was about $70, which was more than I have paid for any other game, ever. But I saw it as buying three good games for $23 each, which I would pay, and with the improved controls put on to all of them (at least, I read they are improved - I didn't play it the other way, but, except for the way it cramps my hand to hit the (+) button to change weapon type (or visor, if that's how you set it) I'm happy with the Trilogy controls.

I've made it through the first game, and one thing I really liked about it was that I enjoyed it all the way through without feeling any need for walkthrough help.

Searching for plausible mechanisms.

Eh, at least Zero Mission gave you the option of ignoring the prompts, but I can see what you're saying.

The main problem was not that you didn't know where to go, it was that you didn't know where you were. Super Metroid still had the former, while dealing with the latter with an added map, and it's not the most popular game in the series for nothing.

Personally, if they're going to implement a "Where to go" guide, I'd like it if they used the Prime version. It's there, but it can easily be ignored, or better yet, turned off.

I got Metroid Prime Trilogy around the time it was released, didn't know it would get so rare.

What exactly do you mean by "most popular"?

I agree that the bosses should have been harder. In general, I think bosses should be appropriately hard. And Ridley was, sadly, kinda a joke in Zero Mission.

That said, the original wasn't a very well-designed game anyway, handwaving aside—the reason that many rooms looked similar was because they had limited memory space to fit different rooms. With modern technology, they can actually, say, give dfferent background or other small visual cues to things, to actually make the game less Guide Dang It! levels of hard.

How did powerups change the gameplay entirely in the original in a way that was more significant than just getting through obstacles?

And the stealth sequence was nice, in my opinion. Kinda annoying that it's basically spoiled for everyone, but the surprise was nice while it lasted. And the atmospherics are also very nicely done.

In general, I like Zero Mission's engine the most, of the 2D games' engines. Super's is too floaty, M1's has since been greatly improved upon, and Fusion's didn't let me single-wall-jump.

This.

[[quotebock]]Tobias Drake: Honestly, I would love to see Metroidvania games give you destination markers that sometimes just lead you into a trap. "GO HERE!" *you do* "HAHA SUCKER".

Following a linear path in a Metroidvania should be punished. [[/quoteblock]]

Well, the current metroidvania standard design seems to be:

• first path: railroaded.
• second path: choice of several paths.
• and so on, usually further expanding the map and introducing little sidequests or "rooms to remember" little by little.

I'dmuch rather this. Beef gates and all. If you can swim through the acid or run through the room of massively overpowered monsters fast enough, then feel free to tackle something near the endgame as your second dungeon.

The only way I finished M1 was years, later, by emulator and savestate AND with a map on hand.

This.

Well, it IS true that a lot of the rooms are identical. Say, you have a vertical corridor with several portals off to the left. They each lead to rooms that look the same. Something like that.

And yes, Kraid's lair is the biggest offender, with several loops of rooms that contain absolutely nothing.

Yeah that. I knew there was a better word, but couldn't remember it.

Regarding Zero Mission. It's the last Metroid I played before Other M, but I don't remember much about it other than I liked the sequence at the end of the game. I also don't remember being prompted on where to go in that game and still got lost a few times (though it wasn't as bad as Metroid 2's). Then again I tend to suck at these types of games (I'm still stuck in Symphony Of The Night for example).

edited 27th Dec '10 1:19:55 PM by Customer

But I'm not complaining about how they made rooms more distinguishable. That's a good thing. I'm complaining about how the game pretty much holds your hand until the very end so you can never possibly get lost in any way.

It's a bit difficult to explain for me, so sorry if I don't express myself clearly.

Let's say, why do you pick up the missiles in ZM? Because you need to open red doors, and to use on some bosses too. But why do you pick them in the original? Obviously you need them for red doors too, but it also changes the way you play the game, now that you have them, you can one-shot enemies that gave you a lot of trouble until now, but you also need to be careful and rationalize the missiles you have. In ZM they don't change the way you play because you can just kill every enemy by shooting while you are running, so you don't need missiles for them.

In the original, as in most metroid games, Samus has two jumps, the normal jump and the spin jump. The spin jump is very difficult to control and results in a lot of falls into lava, filled with dangerous enemies, resulting in death multiple times, so of course you would try to use the normal jump all the time. But when you get the screw attack, you realize how awesome the spin jump actually is. Now it's a complete reversal, you try to use the spin jump whenever possible. In ZM it makes pretty much no difference whatsoever how you jump, and you only need screw attack to open blocks, since, again, enemies can be easily disposed of with the normal beam.

Same with the varia suit, same with the ice beam. In ZM you only need them to get past certain areas, but in the original, they are items that change the way you deal with enemies.

I don't know... perhaps it's just me, but items don't feel as useful as before. Now they are more like keys to access new areas, and that's it. Something like that.

Every time you encounter a Chozo statue, it indicates your next destination on your map. Chozo statues are always blocking you way, so you are forced to take down their indications.

edited 27th Dec '10 1:38:18 PM by Ganel

I see what you mean with the missiles.

However, your point about the jump just seems to mean that you preferred the more frustrating, more floaty physics of M1 and Super over the tighter controls of Fusion and ZM.

As for the ice beam, it was much better implemented in recent games—it doesn't freeze every time you hit, but only on the last hit, freezing rather than vaporizing the enemy. This makes it a far less annoying weapon to use. Especially in the case of M1 where you can't actually carry around an on-demand choice of weapons,...yeah.

M1 also had select to toggle missiles. Same with Super. This was greatly improved upon in Fusion and ZM, where you instead had some hold-down button to shoot missiles.

I see what you mean by the maps, but I basically ignored whatever the Chozo statues told me.

edited 27th Dec '10 1:44:11 PM by GlennMagusHarvey

I actually don't. I prefer a faster paced game. That was just a point to illustrate how the usefulness of the screw attack has decreased severely.

The ice beam changed the way you played the game exactly because it freezes and unfreezes the enemies every time it hits. Suddenly, those guys who have been fucking you up until now become moving platforms at your disposal, any time you want (something which was very useful in the original).

edited 27th Dec '10 1:57:36 PM by Ganel

But if the jump physics of both games were identical, then the screw attack would have the same function in both.

What you're pointing to is something that I'll bet was NOT an intentional design feature by any stretch, but just an artifact.

As for the ice beam, that is a good thing, I'll grant. But in that case, I'd say that I'd prefer that such an "old ice beam" be one weapon choice among many, as in Super for example, rather than what you're stuck with until the next time you find something.