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Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#2701: Aug 19th 2016 at 8:28:33 AM

Kumogawa's real ability is that he always loses, so it doesn't matter how overpowered you make him.

Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#2702: Aug 19th 2016 at 1:40:32 PM

You probably shouldn't try to use Kumagawa in anything unless you've actually read the series, to get a feel for his character and the tone of the series in general.

edited 19th Aug '16 6:22:09 PM by Clarste

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
Formerly G.G.
#2703: Aug 19th 2016 at 3:46:29 PM

Also, it is important to note Kumagawa doesn't always 'lose' but it is just that most of his 'victories' don't really feel like such to him.

edited 19th Aug '16 3:46:55 PM by GAP

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Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#2704: Aug 21st 2016 at 12:16:50 PM

Kumagawa's abilities depend on the point when you use him, but if you're using him with All-Fiction like in the example you game, he can erase or Ret-Gone whatever he wants, including concepts, abilities, senses, objects, people, the time it would take for him to accomplish something and events. Also, it activates automatically on his death to Ret-Gone his death. He always loses, by which we mean he will never achieve exactly he was aiming for (but usually manages to achieve most of what he needs anyway by arranging how he can fail).

But yes, Kumagawa is a complicated character who should be studied before you try to use him.

EDIT: In addition, he's an expert at psychologically breaking people, can intrinsically identify and target weaknesses and he's erased his "aura", so he can only be sensed via sight and sound.

edited 21st Aug '16 12:20:05 PM by Sereg

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
Formerly G.G.
#2705: Sep 23rd 2016 at 9:54:01 PM

This guy explains Kumagawa in a very interesting way.

With Kumagawa him being a Minus meant that he wasn't able to become an MC even though he wanted to. He gets amongst the most elaborate backstories in the series, he is given a great deal of sympathy and hero upgrades and even has a sort of twisted power of friendship style thing but ultimately he can never escape that he will always be a loser, and that was the 'joke' of his character. I guess if I had to compare it to anything it is like how no matter what happens Vegeta will always lose, he can't ever be a hero because he is a fundamentally negative character.

Yeah, but it reflects how in some manga it feels like losing is written into the DNA of the characters. They are either there to job or when they do succeed it is hollow or awkward. Vegeta even when he succeeds doesn't, Usopp can be integral to an arc but will be overshadowed by others by design, heck even Hitsugaya of Bleach could be accused of it in that he is popular handsome and powerful yet rarely achieves anything as if he is specifically written to lose. At least that is my take on it, it c ould be a lot less complicated and just be another gimmick that exists to counterpoint the specials. I feel like maybe Kumagawa himself is the more specific take on how certain characters can't ever be mains while often the other Minuses are just evil archetypes.

This guy break even down even further.

I can definitely see that relationship, and I think it's accurate actually, but from a narrative perspective I don't think Kumagawa was ever portrayed as a character of that level. In fact, iirc he laments multiple times throughout the manga about how something "would have happened" were he a main character. I think there's a certain poetry about it as well. From an overhead view, Kumagawa was indeed the third balancing piece of the two M Cs, but being the failure that he is he wasn't able to reach their place in the narrative and the storyline as presented to the reader. In terms of his personality, his power, and his role, he was equally (if not more) significant than the other two, but his intrinsic fate as a character was only of someone to be overshadowed. I definitely do see your perspective though, and it's definitely worth discussing further.

I had been asking around in the internet where I asked if the series is evena decosntruction in the traditional sense or is it simply a shonen manga done by Nisio Isin. Going back to the previous pages, Medaka Box is tougue-in-cheek as it seems to be a more of a tribute to shonen tropes rather than taking them down. One poster even commented on Medaka Box is mechanically a shonen battle manga despite parodying the tropes it uses just as Hot Shots and Loaded weapon are action movies despite being parodies.

"Eratoeir is a Gangsta."
fillerdude Since: Jul, 2010
#2706: Sep 24th 2016 at 12:07:36 AM

Medaka Box is genre-savvy, but it's not a deconstruction. In a way, "shonen as done by Nisio Isin" is an apt way to describe the series.

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#2707: Sep 24th 2016 at 2:04:06 AM

It has deconstructive elements in it, but isn't an all-out deconstruction.

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Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#2708: Sep 24th 2016 at 2:29:38 AM

There isn't such a thing as something that is only deconstructive elements and nothing else, so why the arbitrary distinction?

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#2709: Sep 24th 2016 at 2:48:47 AM

Why do you think that a work where the overall theme and most of the genre tropes are deconstructed is only arbitrarily different from a work where only a few genre tropes are deconstructed?

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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#2710: Sep 24th 2016 at 9:23:31 AM

[up] (5)

Is this... an overanalysis? Because this makes the series seem a bit deeper than the anime gave off.

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Gilphon Since: Oct, 2009
#2711: Sep 24th 2016 at 9:41:44 AM

The series is most certainly quite a deeper than the anime gave off- the anime only really adapted the bad part. And it's not so much overanalysis as much as what the series fairly directly says.

edited 24th Sep '16 9:42:07 AM by Gilphon

Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#2712: Sep 25th 2016 at 10:29:06 AM

Why do you think that a work where the overall theme and most of the genre tropes are deconstructed is only arbitrarily different from a work where only a few genre tropes are deconstructed?

I think that the decision on where it goes from a few genre tropes to an overall theme is arbitrary, because it's a scale and one that one cannot reach the end of.

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#2713: Sep 25th 2016 at 12:15:06 PM

Are you just trolling, or do you really think there's no notable difference between "a little of something" and "much of something"?

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Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#2714: Sep 25th 2016 at 12:18:37 PM

Going back to the previous pages, Medaka Box is tougue-in-cheek as it seems to be a more of a tribute to shonen tropes rather than taking them down.

Yes, it's an Affectionate Parody.

Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#2715: Sep 26th 2016 at 1:53:00 AM

Are you just trolling, or do you really think there's no notable difference between "a little of something" and "much of something"?

Not trolling. I legitimately believe that the border between where something becomes "a little" and "a lot" is entirely subjective and thus arbitrary.

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#2716: Sep 26th 2016 at 2:13:15 AM

But the point isn't exactly where the border is. You're saying there's no point in saying that something is almost white rather than almost black, because they're both just grey, so it doesn't matter anyway.

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Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#2717: Sep 26th 2016 at 3:43:45 AM

I have no problem calling both "grey", yes. I can compare them by claiming that one is closer to black or white than the other, but neither actually is black or white. They're both grey.

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#2718: Sep 26th 2016 at 3:47:41 AM

Why would you compare them when you say the distinction is just arbitrary and question why someone would make it? You're contradicting yourself.

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Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#2719: Sep 26th 2016 at 6:48:04 PM

This is a stupid argument about nothing and I would prefer if it ended here.

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
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