What makith an RPG?

@Eldritch Blue Rose: The first Fallout took me about.. 8 hours to complete.

Is Iji an RPG?

No.

There are some people who've argued it could qualify for one, but no, it isn't. You're given a character but you still get to build him up and make decisions for him. All you're given is a name and a sprite. Pre-generated characters are perfectly fine as long as the player still has some choice in their characterization or development. Though, it is becoming sort of a gray area. Some hardcore CRPG players don't consider Mass Effect an RPG for that reason (among others).

Are you serious?

Bull refuse. Immersion has absolutely nothing to do with the game's genre. Most RP Gs tend to be immersive because of the emphasis world design, but that is a side effect. Survival horror games are very immersive and I can't think of any which qualify as CRP Gs (there are some which qualify as JRP Gs though).

There's a difference between heavy raildroading and complete linearity. There are plenty of RP Gs that are railroaded up the ass (see: everything bioware has ever made) but still give choices instead of making them for the player. Even if they are meaningless.

Well duh, that's like saying a boxing video game isn't real boxing. That's part of that whole problem with programmers having to predict everything the player could possibly do in advance. The difference between Western RP Gs and JRP Gs is, the developers of western games at least attempt to predict the player's actions and change to game to accommodate, where JRPG developers don't even bother.

edited 18th Dec '10 10:26:44 PM by Mammalsauce

So would Persona 4 or Devil Survivor be considered "Japanese WRP Gs"? Both allow customization and choice in character development and feature three endings for the first and seven for the latter of which is decided based on your actions throughout the whole game.

^ Based on that description right there I would say yes, mostly because of the multiple endings. For me, you know how a JRPG is going to end, usually, and there's nothing you can do to change that. What you have described sounds more like a WRPG.

Multiple endings actually used to be really really common in JRPGs before the modern era made it more difficulty to render cutscenes and it became cost ineffective. In general they would be based off of subtle things that wouldn't seem like choices at the time. Actually, come to think of it that might be a better way to do things overall.

Like, in Chrono Trigger there's a festival early on in the game where there are a variety of random sidequests you can do as well as some pointless interactions. Later in the game, your character is on trial and depending on what you did various people would come up and either vouch for your character or complain that you stole their sandwich which they left on the counter. At the time, you would have no idea that what you were doing was important. Frankly, that seems much more interesting to me than the obvious good-evil questions that WRPGs like to throw at you. Or even the morally ambiguous ones that are nonetheless assigned good-evil points depending on how the writers see things.

edited 19th Dec '10 12:40:08 AM by Clarste

I personally hate the lack of transparency on part of the designers. And not everyone WRPG has evil-good sliders or stuff like that.. but I don't really have to say that, right?

No, you don't have to say that.

Anyway, transparency is good for games, but for role-playing unintended consequences are much more fun and interesting.

edited 19th Dec '10 12:47:29 AM by Clarste

You can give the player unexpected/unintended consequences without basing his endings on absolutely inconsequential details that were hidden from view for most players. I don't think that Chrono Trigger qualifies for that by the way, most of the endings depended on what point in the timeline you defeated the final boss.

In that case though the unintended consequences look like a cop-out. "You thought you sided with the good king, but he was actually an evil demon in disguise! Haha, we tricked you!" As opposed to some guy you stole a loaf of bread from in the beginning confessing against you in a trial, where you think "oops, hadn't thought of that". In one case you blame the unintended consequence on the writers, on the other you blame yourself for not thinking things through.

And Chrono Trigger is certainly not a perfect example, and indeed you get thrown in prison anyway because of the Evil Chancellor rigging the trial. It's just a example of something I haven't seen much of.

Huh? No, that's only one way to do that.

Well, yes, there are infinite number of ways to write stories, but the point is that when you advertise your choices with "this is an important choice, think about it carefully" signs then it loses some of the impact. Having your smaller actions build up to larger effects has a more naturalistic effect that can catch the player off-guard more easily.

edited 19th Dec '10 1:03:19 AM by Clarste

Having only small actions have an effect feels extremely unnatural and only really has a place in an otherwise very linear story, not to mention that it can often be even unnerving: see the Silent Hill 2 endings. Seriously, you get a different ending based on how much you've looked at a certain object? How is the player supposed to know? Yeah, I know it's not an RPG, but it supports my point rather well.

You're not supposed to know the consequences of your actions. That's the whole point of role-playing. The instant you make it a game choice as opposed to a role-playing choice then you've lost any right to call it a "true" role-playing game. Although it can still be a PC RPG or whatever.

And yes, it would be quite troublesome, if not impossible, to write a lengthy game containing many of these choices and actually have them matter.

edited 19th Dec '10 1:08:10 AM by Clarste

I don't know, I find the whole tr00 roleplayer thing bothersome personally. Yeah, it is a game choice because you're playing a game. If someone wants to meticulously roleplay a character let him do it. It's not like most people asked themselves what Chrono would do in that situation anyway. If anything most probably just missed the fact that you could steal the bread. And there's still room to not make the player's choices be too obvious without basing them on trivial and inconsequential details.

Yeah, I haven't played either of those, but from what I've heard about Persona 3/4, it might qualify depending on how robust the 'social link' system (or w/e) is.

Good-evil choices, even 'morally ambiguous' ones (where the good guy is a jerk and the bad guy hands out blankets to orphans) usually aren't looked upon highly in RPG circles.

Also, Chrono Trigger is usually thought highly of by western RPG players who stray outside their comfort zone. It doesn't quite fit the bill as it is, but if S-E handed the license to a company like Obsidian, with a little tweaking I think it could make an excellent western RPG.

Re: surprise consequences for seemingly inconsequential actions in games, I think it can be a great way to add a twist, assuming it doesn't telegraph the twist to hell. On the other hand it can get annoying having the rug pulled out from under the player's feet all the time.

"Also, Chrono Trigger is usually thought highly of by western RPG players who stray outside their comfort zone."

Yeah I've noticed that Chrono Trigger is the JRPG for people who hate JRP Gs.

Funny you said Obsidian, because I'm pretty sure they've mentioned wanting to work on it during an interview.

I wouldn't mind as long as the combat and graphical stuff is handled internally by SE.

edited 19th Dec '10 7:25:16 AM by JotunofBoredom

Umbran Climax◊

I don't know about that... They already tried to reinvent the wheel with Chrono Cross, and more recently, FFXIII's battle system was pretty much the worst I've ever seen. FFXII's was okay though.

Although I think this is a bit of a derail (C&C [Choice & Consequence] isn't specific to RPGs at all, and I'd say it's actually more of an Adventure Game thing if I were forced to name a particular genre as its focus) WRPG fans also tend to feel this way. Like how the “Dialogue choice (character skill die roll for success depends on)”-thing in Fallout 3 was greeted with universal derision.

Eric,

Responding to Mammalsauce

No, but a Super Metroid shrine used to be hosted on RPG Classics or something, which is why I like to ask.

Perhaps I might have meant simulation. Though the two often go hand-in-hand. Games designated as RP Gs almost always have much more complicated game mechanics (at least those visible to the player) than "simpler" games like action platformers. This allows them to simulate in more detail (and hopefully, with more accuracy) various aspects of the play environment, allowing for easier immersion for some gamers, such as setting buffs.

Do you, by that last sentence fragment, mean that meaningless choices still count as choices? How meaningless do they have to be before they don't count as choices anymore?

...and why isn't Iji an RPG, may I ask? I know that most people probably wouldn't consider it one, but...why?

Quoting Jotun of Boredom: "Yeah I've noticed that Chrono Trigger is the JRPG for people who hate JRP Gs."

I haven't noticed that.

A lot of people who are dedicated to bashing JRP Gs will always have the response, "Oh I don't hate JRP Gs, I like Chrono Trigger" and then will launch into some diatribe about nostalgia and how things have gotten worse as if liking Chrono Trigger is an excuse for making generalizations.

"I haven't noticed that."

Well it's all anecdotal of course; I've just noticed it a bunch.

Umbran Climax◊

Never played chrono trigger actually. I played legend of the dragoon as a kid. I don't know if that was made in Japan though.

That's actually a good question. At what point does a choice become meaningless in a game and does that effect it's RP Gness?

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