Martial Arts Thread

Aikido's a very good martial art if you're into discipline and working hard.

I would shy away from boxing what with all the young men it kills on a regular basis, sometimes (often) being cruel enough to kill them years after they've thought they'd got out of the fight game clean only for their brains to develop stuff like Parkinson's disease and take them out in the most humiliating way possible.

Going face to face with your opponent and being encouraged to take repeated punches to the head when you've not even reached puberty yet should be called what it is - child abuse. If your dad or mom did that to you in your own home it would be a police case. I don't see what a few yards of rope and a few square yards of canvas does as far as making any real difference.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that it should be banned - because it wouldn't stop the horrible so-called sport - prohibition NEVER fucking works - but it should be restricted to over 21s only. I don't think Will Smith's ever done a drama-documentary on the damage the fight game does to young men's brains, like he did for American Football, but then again, he played Muhammad Ali so there's that, I suppose. Maybe he should atone for that?

In regards to Aikido it depends on which branch you're in.

Interesting. Seems Aikido is as fractured as Shotokan-Karatedo. I've seen numerous splits in the groups who teach that in my lifetime.

I personally do Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, and it has fracturing as well. Mostly the students (and students of students) who were trained by Takeda Sokaku and went off on their own, which was relatively normal as far as older styles go. They're individuals who just happened to teach the same martial art.

Of course there's some dodginess there as well...

edited 9th Jul '16 12:22:43 PM by TerminusEst

Okay, Tam, your apprehension towards boxing is extreme.

First of all, getting punched in the head does happen but it's in no way ever encouraged. You are encouraged to block them or bob and weave around.

Second, no, unless you come across really shitty coach or become a professional, chances of getting substantial damage to the head is little to none in young age.

Lastly, dude, learning how to throw or defending yourself against punch is one of most fundamental part of fighting, and boxing is what is possibly one of the most efficient martial arts there is.

I've heard that song before so many times I could set it to music.

When I wake up, l'mma try and do a better job of explaining just how little I buy it.

Suit yourself. Whether you buy it or not is irrelevant to its proven effectiveness as martial art and self defense.

Boxing is a blood sport, pure and simple. What's the fans' preferred way of seeing a fight end? Points? Split decision? Trainer throwing the towel in? Nope. Fuck that noise. They want to see knockouts. Some poor sap sprawled on the canvas unconscious or dead - they don't give a fuck either way. Have you ever really watched a boxing match, not just looked at the pretty pictures, but WATCHED it? Have you watched the crowd? Literally baying for blood?

Getting it all too fucking often.

I watched the Chris Eubank/Michael Watson match when I was a much younger guy, and I saw what happened to a beautiful young man (Watson) when an ogre (Eubank, natch) had finished with him. The crowd didn't stop cheering until long after he'd been carted off unconscious, nearly dying on the way to hospital. If they ever did at all.

Years later I saw the wreck that was Watson extolled for finishing the London Marathon, extolled as being "brave" for doing so. I heard echoes of that self-same baying mob in the complements paid to him which I did not join in because it was an obscenity.

That's what boxing leads to, all too often. Human wreckage paraded in the glare of news cameras.

Breaking my silence for a moment to point a few things out, especially since one particular point is potentially life threatening and beyond the purview of this thread.

Martial arts training is not going to help with this. If possible, seek professional help from social services or a counselor who will maintain confidentiality. Learning self-defense techniques will not help with an abusive family member. If you want to, you can give me your location and I'll see if I can find the appropriate mental health and housing resources to get you out of the situation.

On boxing, it's slightly more dangerous than many contact sports, but a distinction should be made between professional bouts with absolute full-contact rules and small-time daily classes and smoker bouts with full head gear, groin protectors and even chest protectors in some gyms. Frankly, I've been hit harder in Kenpo Karate than I have in boxing, probably because of the diversity of the group I was training with in terms of skill set. Current research shows that 90 percent of professional boxers experience some form of head trauma at some point in their careers, but the operative word is "professional". Your average salary worker who does boxing as a hobby will likely not encounter those injuries. Again, speaking from experience.

Train in a gym with gear that doesn't go all-out every single training session and you'll be fine. If a martial arts school has students walking out with bloodied noses, black eyes and dislocated shoulders, stay away. Lack of hard sparring can be bad, but given your current emotional wellbeing, that's neither here nor there, frankly.

On Taekwondo, dRoy is being a bit bleak, but I mostly agree. You can find full-contact TKD schools that will give you a well-rounded approach to fighting, but I generally advise against using any martial art primarily as a long-term character building exercise. Many full-contact kickboxers and MMA fighters have had successful training regimens from TKD schools although TKD may not be the basis of their fighting style. If nothing else, visit a halfway decent school, learn what you can and move onto something better when it comes up. But don't waste precious time and money on something that can be learned much faster and more effectively, as dRoy suggested.

You really need to focus on bettering your mental health. Contact me or one of the moderators for help. I'm not qualified to treat depression or other mental health issues, but I can find colleagues who are, depending on where you live. Some self-defense moves aren't going to be relevant to that. As an instructor, I've turned away students with suicidal thoughts and a history of being abused because they're seeking out training for the wrong reasons. I point them toward counselors instead and I can't stress enough how you should go in that direction.

edited 9th Jul '16 8:13:08 PM by Aprilla

I don't know man, at least from what I've seen in MMA, even people who has TKD in their arsenals seems to mostly employ kicks that are more from Karate and Muay Thai. I mean, the most used kick in MMA is low kick and TKD doesn't even have proper ones.

As for the practicality of martial arts in terms of self defense, I like how a Quora user put it: your marginal return in self-defense ability per unit of time trained is not the same for all martial arts.

Jesus, even in wrestling I was taught to put my hands in front of my face (while in low, crouched form, of course).

Speaking of grappling, here's a fun video: a narrated friendly match between Jung Chan Sung and Rener Gracie.

edited 10th Jul '16 4:53:50 AM by dRoy

In my experience, the training in TKD can change radically from place to place and teacher to teacher. Often they teach you three things: what you need to pass the belt test, what you need in a match and then what you should ''actually" do in self-defense.

TKD was largely made out of Shotokan karate, combined with the kick oriented arts from Korea (which is where the focus comes from). This already becomes problematic, as the "standardised" karate of Gichin Funakoshi became more oriented towards the form of karate, as a tool of exercise for the military and propaganda (although it wasn't very successful as seen in the splintering of schools and styles). The guys in Okinawa can brutalise you pretty efficiently, which is why people go there to experience "real" karate, without the modern trappings. I'm not entirely sure why TKD changed such a radical degree from the more functional form, although I suspect it's similar to what Japan went through, socially that is.

Then there's Uechi-ryu, which is downright medieval.

edited 10th Jul '16 8:25:42 AM by TerminusEst

I remember when I was younger reading a lot about the two main styles of karate-do that were talked about in the magazines - soft and hard style. And how more likely it was that doing lots of hard style, like Shotokan-ryu, was liable to really screw your body up as you got older due to the amount of stresses it inflicts. I've talked to some martial artists and read more since, and I kinda agree with them. Styles like (I'm copying and pasting names from Wikipedia so that the accents and the like are correct) Gōjū-ryū and Shōrin-ryū, that are also like Shotokan-ryu from Okinawa, seem to be less stressful and injury causing.

I feel like the elephant still in the room is the fact that we have teenage troper who might be in a personal state of emergency. I haven't heard from the mods or anyone else on the matter, but that needs to be given at least marginal attention.

I guess I'll participate a little more.

Depends on the school. In both Tiger Crane Kenpo Karate and Shotokan Karate, I've been fortunate enough to train with former TKD black belts who understood the importance of proper kicks, including low kicks. My first Shotokan instructor was an ee dan (second-degree) in TKD with a solid full-contact background, I was spoiled by that resource.

I'm ambivalent about this. Jesse Enkamp has written extensively about his experiences studying Okinawan karate, and he was quite surprised to find that, while their training doctrine was more austere, they looked at his karate with bewilderment upon seeing influences from boxing, jiujutsu, aiki-jiujutsu, kendo and taekwondo - influences he didn't even notice until they were pointed out to him.

With isn't to say that traveling to Okinawa to study traditional karate is bad. Not at all. Many karateka argue over who practices "real" karate, and even moreso under their own roofs, and the unearthing of bunkai has more to do with just reinventing the wheel - adding what was already there. For example, many karate schools have shin kicks, instep kicks, elbows, joint locks, shoulder strikes, hooks, uppercuts and many other "modern" MMA-style techniques that are most certainly not modern at all. Most of these techniques can be found in the kata if one looks closely enough.

Hand conditioning and heavybag traing seem to be lost on a lot of karate schools, such that many karateka have a limited understanding of proper target acquisition and hit effects. I've written about this before. You can actually find old manuscripts of Funakoshi's predecessors stressing the importance of full-contact fighting, even in ippon kumite. These days, I'm more in agreement with the Kyokushin school of thought in addition to what is taught in western boxing. This is why I've incorporated Kyokushin into my repertoire. It's actually not that far away from what was stressed in that Uechi-ryu video. It's just hard to find any karateka of any school that trains like that anymore.

EDIT: I strongly recommend reading the bubishi if you haven't already.

edited 10th Jul '16 10:12:26 AM by Aprilla

Out of interest, wasn't Dolph Lundgren a Kyokushinkai black belt of some description?

I have read it. Absolutely fascinating.

Honestly, I never got into the competitive mindset which is why when everything is geared towards it, in say Judo (which I did for 7 years) I started losing my will to even try.

Now I do martial arts as an access to Japanese history, language and culture (and others). I like it as an intellectual exercise.

edited 10th Jul '16 10:09:55 AM by TerminusEst

Yes, he's a sandan.

Yes. Traditional Okinawan schools are famous for their geriatric practitioners. There is a yondan who I believe is current 76 years old, and she began training in Okinawa-te at roughly 63 years old. The Okinawans emphasize karate as a total lifestyle rather than sport or fighting. It focuses on defense as a part of daily living. You use karate for fishing, for cooking, for lifting heavy objects on the farm, for scooping up misbehaving children, etc. Among other features, Okinawan karate has noticeably narrower and more upright stances, which is easier on the elderly. The bujutsu element of karate training is stressed more in Japanese dojo and abroad.

I like to think of Japanese karate as a purpose-built combat knife whereas Okinawan karate is more like a general-purpose knife that can be used for fighting if necessary.

edited 10th Jul '16 10:23:31 AM by Aprilla

Thanks for that. I thought I'd remembered that correctly. No wonder he caused Sly's heart to swell up so bad he had to be CASEVAC'd to hospital in an air ambulance when he was told to punch him for realzies when they were making Rocky IV.

On injuries there are quite a few other injuries to consider. Aprilla mentioned it a while back some of the techniques and practices are more likely to inflict repetitive motion injury or strain injury from the motions if they happen just right. Which is honestly a concern with all the martial arts. Strain to the joints and back are all pretty common.

Yeah, my hips are a bit shit from doing Shotokan. Well, that and carrying bergens/webgear/fuckhueg radios/dummy anti-tank weapons/rifles/machine guns/teleprinters and so on when I was in speckled green skin. All while wearing shitty boots because we were discouraged from wearing good non-issue ones as we all had to be "uniform".

I mean really, in a proper (as in, it has applications in military, police, MMA, etc) martial art, you learn how to fight and you do that by fighting, although in a more systemic and regulated situation. Injuries are practically inevitable and all one can hope for is proper recording of injuries, medical care in system and training, and smart/respectful attitudes among trainers and trainees.

I'm in the middle of reading American Shaolin by one Matthew Polly, one of the first Americans to train kung fu at the Shaolin Temple.

It's an excellent read so far, recommend it to everyone.

Anyone else have recommendations on martial arts related reading material?

Anything by Stephen Turnbull. He's one of the top western authorities on the Samurai, and he's written a lot of well received books on them, their equipment and their swords. He also consulted on both the Shogun Total War games from Sega.

Gonna post here for a kendo question since it's considered as a martial art.

I recently came back after three years since I moved from Vancouver to Manila to live with folks... That aside, I did four months in a local kendo club and today I did my second shiai. My opponent was a new guy, who happens to have an aggressive stance. Although both of us had initial problems getting good hits in before he did. The second hit was kinda my fault since I don't know why I stood for a few seconds like an idiot to allow a hit to be scored.

Any pointers to improve on perhaps the third shiai?

We actually have a swordsmanship thread, although not as active it used to be.

Dunno if I need to cross post...