Super Smash Bros.

Popularity is a factor, but that doesn't matter if the fighter ends up uninteresting to play...then they'd just be disappointing. It doesn't matter who gets in though.

I'd argue the fact that it's a Mascot Fighter kind of mitigates that in the minds of the casual players.

Who cares if anybody is "good" when you can have Mario fight Sonic?

Balance still has a place in casual play. Many players don't want to be completely screwed over during single player. So keeping it balanced is useful even without taking competitive players in mind.

Also, the idea of "must be unique" is really a Smash 4 thing. That was his philosophy for this game. This is pretty much why Heihachi didn't get in. It's also why Ryu couldn't get in till DLC, when he could make him feel really unique. Being a shotoclone with a few physical attacks isn't particular a unique thing. Having the ability to do input commands? There you go~

That said, if the Switch gets an enhanced port, he may or may not continue with this philosophy(assuming he's the developer of the port, which is likely).

I just think that being unique and gimmicky are separate things.

Like, Dixie doesn't have to be a Diddy clone.

It was mentioned that BK don't have a chance due to being B-Listers, but I honestly think that's a non-factor. We've had a ton of Fire Emblem reps despite it only becoming mainstream recently (and that only happened because of Smash), C-Lister Captain Falcon, the fucking Wii Fit Trainer (her game might have done well but the actual character is basically Z-List), and not-exactly-A-List Bayonetta from the ballet.

Captain Falcon's weird- Going by F-Zero alone then yeah, he'd make C-list at best, but within Smash he's so insanely well-liked that he could beat Chrom out of the roster and no one called bullshit.

Captain Falcon and Roy are pretty much Smash characters first and foremost at this point. Funny how both of them were also given unexplained fire powers for Smash.

To say nothing of Ness. Bear in mind that he got into the first game even though Earthbound's first release was a bomb and hardly anyone had heard of the game at the time.

edited 6th Dec '16 5:16:08 PM by kablammin45

Regarding the gimmickry argument, I don't really think any character is "uninteresting to play." I mean, some are less technical and/or flashy than others, but clones aside, they all have something that make them unique. Take most of the Brawl newcomers, for example. There's really nothing remarkable about, say, Wario, Sonic, or King Dedede, but all three of their playstyles are distinctly their own.

And honestly, I think you'd have to try pretty hard to turn characters like King K. Rool, Ganon, and Ridley into conventional fighters, let alone boring.

I think that's exactly the problem, especially with Ridley.

My point is that they wouldn't be any more or less conventional than the average Smash fighter. Ridley's "problem," insofar as he actually has one, is that he'd have a very unusually-shaped hitbox. But if the Project M people could make him work, then Nintendo themselves certainly could, if they really wanted to.

But they...didn't? Ridley mod is not really up to tournament standard anyway.

edited 6th Dec '16 6:57:11 PM by IceAnt573

Naturally, but it's a pretty impressive achievement for a team of hobbyist modders. I'm not a huge Ridley fanboy or anything (I've only beaten one Metroid game, and it was Other M), but I don't think there's any legitimate reason Ridley can't be playable in Smash. Sakurai could make him work if he really wanted to.

Banjo & Kazooie are third party. Being a b-lister actually matters to them a lot unless they were voted high on the Smash ballot. 1st and 2nd parties don't have any issues where being iconic or having a gaming history is all that relevant to actually having a chance. Just remember, they're Microsoft characters. That means that bar the ballot, they have to compete with highly relevant characters(who are also currently bigger gaming-wise, as well as their gaming impact) with Jago/Fulgore(the de facto Killer Instinct characters), the Battletoads(currently relevant if only due to a cameo, but also made a mark on the Brawler genre), Master Chief(Not only is he far more known, but Halo made a huge mark on the FPS genre), and Steve(while his name is not that known, due to having no real characterization of note, his game on the other hand is immensely important and iconic. Minecraft is huge). When you consider the fact that BK only did so much as make an impact for a total of one system, they're not that high on the scale compared to far bigger choices. Of course, one thing going for them is moveset potential, but that alone doesn't cut it. To be honest, I think Steve may be one of the better choices if they can pull it off well with the mechanics. It also is relevant as a franchise and you easy to keep the Minecraft feel compared to someone like Master Chief's issue with keeping his guns feeling right. Obviously, Master Chief's games are solely on the competitor's console. That alone can easily be a problem for him, as I can see Nintendo not wanting to promote a hefty Microsoft project. Applies equally to Killer Instinct characters. BK has no real games coming, but still, again, just isn't on their scale. This is why Steve works well. You already have him on Nintendo systems, so promotional problems do not exist at all. There's no business problems that way.

For 3rd parties, if they aren't ballot winners, they have a lot more strict criteria. On the other hand, being currently relevant doesn't matter as long as they're major characters in gaming.

Uniqueness does come in part with gimmicks as well, but yeah, they're not the same thing. A gimmick is something to help them stand out from others. Being unique can be as simple as having a variation of the same move that leads to different gameplay. The way they work together is giving someone a gimmick can help make them unique. But also in a way, they can be considered the same overall thing, depending the character, at least(It effectively is why they would get.in. Robin is both unique and gimmicky, but what made him stand out was his gimmick. Without it, he wouldn't have gotten in. Compare to Dr. Mario, where he doesn't have a special gimmick at all, but making him unique enough from regular Mario was all that was needed. Lucina's mechanic of being average all around is actually what made her unique. Dark Pit, on the other hand, was unique just cause a few moves didn't fit his characterization, and the team just happened to have ideas to separate him from Pit a little).

Size is a legitimate reason.

It's not so much size as proportions. Disjointed hitboxes can be a pain to balance. Ridley's problem is his lanky body and that super long tail.

I think they could otherwise balance him if they could get a proper design that works well for it.

He needs another re-design...

Oh, hey, Irene.

I'm not saying Banjo and Kazooie are a bigger deal than Master Chief. Master Chief is undisputedly more iconic to Microsoft/Xbox and to gaming as a whole. If there's going to be a singular Xbox rep, it can only be him. But if you take Rare as a microcosm, I just don't buy that Killer Instinct is more iconic than Banjo-Kazooie. Banjo and Kazooie are the face of Rare. It's kind of like how Pac-Man is the face of Namco even though his glory days are long behind him and nobody liked the recent attempted revival.

(Also, smaller paragraphs, please!)

EDIT: No it's not. If Captain Olimar (who in canon is smaller than a bottle cap) can be sized up, Ridley can be sized down.

edited 6th Dec '16 7:24:37 PM by ThriceCharming

That's not what is meant by size when it comes to Ridley. He's more lanky than large.

Take for example Bowser. He is usually shown to be quite large but he can also resized easily because his stocky body can still be conveyed easily. Ridley on the other hand has his mass from his limbs (Mainly his wings) and that does not make it easy to resize him. I'm pretty sure if they shrunk him down to make him playable he would be a Noodle person like reptile with his Wings and tail making up most of his model. There's a high chance he would look like a mess.

Take note this is coming from a person who's been a fan of Metroid since the 90's when Super Metroid came out.

Agreed. Once Nintendo gives him a design that leaves him with better proportions for resizing is when I'll start petitioning him for a playable spot in Smash.

edited 6th Dec '16 7:36:20 PM by MachThreeSlug

But couldn't you say the same about Charizard? Sure, he's a little beefier in the middle, but he also has big dragon wings and a long tail, and he looks just fine.

Smaller paragraphs would miss too many key details. No can do, sorry.

Anyway, BK aren't even iconic after the 64. They had one mediocre game. Meanwhile Killer Instinct spanned 3 different Nintendo systems, is a major thing in Arcades(back then, as I don't think KI 3 has an arcade cabinet, but don't quote me on that), and one of the biggest fighting franchises currently. The revival itself was due to how easy it was to make it a lovable series again.

BK unfortunately isn't that iconic in general. It's a one system wonder that didn't influence gaming as a whole. That's unfortunate, but the reality of the situation. They still deserve some credit. They helped push the n64(not enough to beat the PSX, mind you).

As I've explained, Killer Instinct defined combos themselves. But it also created the usage of announcer chatter(which is heavily used to this day) as more than just "say this character's name when you select them on the screen", and Combo Breakers(which have been in a heavy amount of games, and also influenced the Counter moves akin to what Smash uses). It's also far more widespread through multiple systems, and Arcade. BK deserves credit, but only for how big it was on the n64. Rare can't even really use the BK series anymore, due to being owned by Microsoft. It's up to them. It's why the developers just went to make their own new platforming series, being Yooka-Laylee.

Rareware was first known for platforming game(DKC being their most notable, respectively). They don't own DK himself, so of course they can't use him as a mascot. Keep also in mind that for the n64 era, BK is their biggest character. While Killer Instinct is the more iconic franchise due to its influence on gaming as a whole, it doesn't mean it's their personal favorite either.

Keep in mind that who Rare chooses as their mascot does not make them inherently more iconic. It's just who they feel represents the genre they want to represent, which is respectively platforming.

Charizard is also not comparable to Ridley. His tale and body are of reasonable proportions. It's not a "big tail" so much as a regular-sized one for a dragon and doesn't have a huge hitbox either. It has a fairly reasonable one, when an active attack. His moveset also doesn't have him large disjointed hitboxes. Ridley's tail is far longer, so it stands to reason that he needs a bigger design change or a moveset that barely uses his tail in a way that gives him major range.

edited 6th Dec '16 7:43:17 PM by Irene

Charizard is actually pretty small in Pokemon canon. It's 5ft7in

edited 6th Dec '16 7:43:53 PM by RAlexa21th

You actually did what I asked, though! And I appreciate it. You have a lot of interesting things to say, but those walls of text are a little cumbersome to read. Just break 'em up a little more, as you did.

Also, you're the only person I've ever met that thinks Killer Instinct is a bigger deal than Banjo-Kazooie. I mean, you're absolutely right that the Killer Instinct series has more games and that more of its games are good, including the Double Helix one that's still popular and successful, but Banjo and Kazooie are more... well, iconic. They're more recognizable than any one Killer Instinct fighter. This isn't just me talking out of my ass, either; Banjo and Kazooie ranked high in almost every fan poll, pre-Bayonetta. When nostalgic Nintendo fans say they wish Microsoft hadn't bought Rare, KI ain't what they're longing for.

I mean, I'm not saying you're wrong to prefer KI or that wouldn't like seeing a KI rep in Smash. I just think the majority of Rare and Nintendo fans would see it as a wasted opportunity.

edited 6th Dec '16 8:16:42 PM by ThriceCharming

I'm talking about gaming history. KI's characters aren't as memorable because they're pretty one-note. That's reasonable. It's impact on gaming is immensely larger and ultimately influences tons of fighting games as a whole. BK didn't really influence anything new that DKC didn't do already. Super Mario 64 already influenced the actual 3D collectathon first. BK did add some cool stuff for partners characters, and is a memorable game on its own merits. But its influence overall is ultimately lesser.

Keep in mind the n64 is a severely memorable console, so that's part of why many know of BK. Even more obscure games on it are starting to see attention(including my favorite n64 game, Quest 64), mostly due to various reviews. I would like to see BK get a revival and actually add something heavily new to platforming overall. I'd like to see it have more influence in gaming myself. I don't expect it, though, cause Microsoft clearly doesn't seem to care. Hell, they actually censored Conker's Bad Fur Day more than the n64 version ever had. Awkwardly enough.

Maybe Ridley isn't a playable character because he's never actually been playable before. Aside from the characters who are more representative of a era of gaming, like Duck Hunt and Mr. Game and Watch, are there any playable characters in Smash Bros who have never been playable before in their home games?