Game of Thrones [Potential Book Spoilers]

So Jon left the North promising to find allies, he's going to come back telling everyone they're part of Dany's kingdom now. How is everyone in the North going to take that?

My first guess was the stinking corpse.

I haven't read Brothers Karamazov myself, but a quick Google search for 'brothers karamazov stinking corpse' seems to confirm it. ("X’s corpse begins to stink very quickly, exuding a particularly strong and putrid odor.")

Poorly, methinks. I hope they will go smartly about this, confirming only an alliance at first. After the lords will see the dragons and hear that Daenerys is willing to use them in the war with WW, they might warm up to the idea.

I find it interesting that the drop in writing quality was, season 5 notwithstanding, accompanied by a rise in cinematic quality.

I completely get why seasons 1-4 are more highly regarded than the rest by book fans, but faithfulness leads to some big cinematic issues being easily forgiven.

Like the horrible, horrible rhythm of seasons 1-3. Episodes 9 were awesome but preceded by a whole bunch of not much happening. The Red Wedding is a great moment but the build up is just too damn long for what is essentially a shock moment that lasts for 10 minutes.

Because while books can be interesting despite not much action taking place, it is much harder for TV shows to do the same.

GOT seasons 1-3 felt like a Netflix show, one that is designed to be binge-watched but that suffers from major pacing issues if you don't know about the source material. Seasons 6-7 feel more like a weekly show. It is a trade-off.

The thing is I really do quite like the later seasons, but admittedly I have turn off my brain a bit. Like I read once that the characters must have finally located all the key places on the map and that's why they keep fast traveling everywhere. This is an amusing way to just not care about that kind of silliness. Season 5 is just awful though...except Hardhome. But I think part of the reason I liked Hardhome so much was I wasn't really expecting Hardhome to be this big "oh wow we really need to deal with the white walkers" moment.

It has admittedly been pulpish recently. But pulp is not bad, and after season 3 and 4 the show would just have failed trying to top itself when it comes to "building towards a big Wham Episode".

If you consider Ned's death, the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding and the Mountain vs the Viper, which are among the if not THE most whammy moments in the show, they were huge because a sizable part of the previous episodes was about building towards them, and many prominent members of the cast had a hand in it (willing or not). So many people suffered through a lot of slow, verbose scenes because in hindsight they made the big ones possible.

But now, they are starting to run short in big, ensemble scenes, in part because GRRM probably hasn't written the next ones yet (...if he manages to top himself, which is unsure), and because the ones he has written aren't as big. Hodor's reveal was absolutely awesome, and one of the greatest moments in the show (also, one that is likely to be in the books), but A) it was not enough to justify the absolutely dismal pacing of Bran's story (true for books and show, they are a total bore in either case) and B) it doesn't effect most characters, as only Bran and Meera (who herself is secondary) know about it.

My point is basically that if they had kept trying for the slow, faithful pace of season 1-3 in seasons 6-7, it would be much worse. What we would gain in consistency, we would lose in pacing, staging, and cinematic moments. Season three had a "consistent" war depicted...and it was utterly boring to watch, because its whole point was to build towards the RW. Season seven has a war that violates the space-time continuum on several occasions, and it is much more entertaining to watch. They could have shown a scene of the dothrakis galloping throughout the Crownlands, or the Unsullied marching towards Casterly Rock, or the Lannister army in a hurry to invade the Reach, while the known characters of those respective armies talk about something to pass the time. It would have been the exact same kind of filler we got for the longest time and that was one of the most commonly mentioned issues of the show.

You know, I think this episode would have worked much better if Jon dragon moment, from the previous episode, was with Rhaegal instead of Drogon. That way, they could have Rhaegal behave unusually erratic for several days and have him stare constantly toward the north, until Dany would figure out that he sense his new friend is in danger just like Drogon sensed her peril in season 5. That way the teleportation wouldn't be as blatant and if done correctly the climax could have even been a surprise to less savvy viewers.

I love that idea.

The teleportation problem could have been solved by Dany deciding "Hey there's nothing for me at Dragonstone right now and I'm actually isolated here, I will go north with Jon and wait at Eastwatch because I'm curious wtf is really going on." Hell, having the dragons go north with this expedition is almost sensible, since no one seems to know where Euron is right now and dragons are proven to be insanely effective against navy.

Requires no change in character motives, no major leaps of logic, and places Dany where the response time could have conceivably been a few hours, assuming Gendry really is a pretty good long distance runner and the terrain isn't too harsh. The encirclement scene still would have felt contrived, but at least the biggest hole would be plugged with no particular finagling.

Or even frame as Jon Snow having said "your grace, you want to rule over the North yet you've never even been. The people in the North will not submit to a ruler who hasn't set foot in the North, come with me to see." I could see that being in character for both of them.

Honestly teleporting Dany was just pure laziness. You guys keep coming up with really easy ways to get around it.

Its hardly just here that people are. Every site I read GoT discussion on has been.

edited 25th Aug '17 3:15:56 PM by doineedaname

The hypocrite◊, George R R Martin.◊

Oh no he may changed his mind or uses the tropes differently

hes such a bad awful writer i'll never buy another book

Yes because the Night King is the only bad guy in the story, and Jon Snow is totally the "chosen one".

It actually makes me super curious what he's planning because he almost looks like he's going to play it straight but he must know that so is he going to pull the rug out from under us or what's going on here

I mean he says stuff like that even today.

We've had five books with barely even a sniff of the Others. With all of the other plot threads that need to be intertwined and tied up, the only way we'll get any deeper look into the idea of a culture or civilization or a greater goal for The Others as a people is an eighth book, which we sure as shit know isn't gonna be a thing.

They are the most generic villains imaginable. They are evil and spooky and they'll bring about the end of the world, but Martin made them pretty so he thinks that makes him clever.

Wait, why are people laying the Night's King at GRRM's feet? He's just a historical/legendary figure in the books - the series turned him into the White Walkers' leader.

Honestly, I noticed this a few times over the last week - where people blame the author for stuff the show makers came up with. :/

edited 25th Aug '17 4:18:45 PM by DrunkenNordmann

Scapegoat Creator

Also, they had long since diverged from the books.so we cannot really blame Martin.

The Night King has as much personality as the Others in the books. Which is to say, none whatsoever.

edited 25th Aug '17 7:23:21 PM by lrrose

Those two images are a greater indictment of D & D than anything else.

Basically, Game of Thrones is the kind of fantasy work that A Song of Ice and Fire was written to deconstruct.

It's not even that, though. At least in a typical fantasy novel, your main characters are good people who succeed at things and make you care about them. Jon, our supposed chosen one, is a bumbling moron who's failed at everything he's ever done from the moment he rose from the grave and has basically pouted until he got his way.

GRRM has said we'll see more of the Others in the next book and that we'll go farther north than we ever had before.

Can't be evil if you don't have morality or a choice. Terminators aren't evil and neither are hurricanes or climate change. The showrunners are right on this.

edited 25th Aug '17 10:43:54 PM by MadSkillz

I mean, The Terminators are trying to wipe out the human race. They are evil.

No, Terminators just do what they are programmed for. Killing/protecting john Connor is the same thing for them.

edited 26th Aug '17 1:27:23 AM by nnokwoodeye1

They're "evil" in the same way that The Xenomorphs from Alien or the T-Rex/Raptors from Jurassic Park are. Namely they're only "evil" in the sense that they're opposing/killing humans. However they're not actively malicious about it. The latter two are relying on instinct, and the former on programming by a different source.

It's different than say, Joffrey or Ramsay, who actively CHOOSE to commit vile/evil acts.