Game of Thrones [Potential Book Spoilers]

Well, although it actually was Melisandre who burned them (although I'd say that it's wrong to absolve Stannis on that basis), the burning of the Seven and the resulting treatment of the Sunglasses because of their reaction to it is pretty uncool.

I mean I think it's a bit of a failure of worldbuilding that the religion of the Lord of Light isn't already a major religion in Westeros (so there's not a clear Catholicism/Protestantism analogy), but basically, Stannis is suppressing the religion that everyone believes in in favor of this foreign religion (that he doesn't even believe in).

That's one of those aspects for why while Stannis is highly sympathetic as an underdog claimant and potential Night Watch commander, I actually think he'd likely make a terrible king unless Davos did double duty as Morality Chain.

edited 22nd Dec '15 1:07:48 PM by Hodor2

Do we actually trust the show runners to do it? No, I'd say.

edited 22nd Dec '15 1:11:28 PM by LordofLore

Not a fucking chance.

@Hodor But the Sunglasses did murder his men and they did disobey their king's orders to stand aside. That's both murder and treason.

And there is an issue on whether the sept was his property to burn or the High Septon's. But yeah it was kinda dickish.

And it depends on what you mean by a bad king. Like I'm sure he's competent at governing and he would clean out much of the corruption prevalent. But he would be unpopular with the nobility especially with his Red Religion.

But GRRM does bring him in comparison to many rulers who left the kingdom/empire better off than they left it(Henry VII and Lous XI) or didn't mess it up in Tiberius' case.

Example:

"Through war, cunning, and sheer guile, Louis XI overcame France's feudal lords, and at the time of his death in the Château de Plessis-lez-Tours, he had united France and laid the foundations of a strong monarchy. He was, however, a secretive, reclusive man, and few mourned his death."

Eh, what? That wasn't GRRM that said that. That was Bryan Cogman.

It kind of seems like a case of "the orphanage attacked me" to defend Stannis' actions toward the Sunglasses (sorry) on the basis that they committed murder and treason.

They turned against him because he started persecuting their religion.

Incidentally, I find it funny that all of the historical people Martin compares Stannis to are often considered to be evil. Granted, he says that Stannis is good intentioned in a way they weren't, but it makes me wonder if he's either implying a twist or if it's a serious case of Analogy Backfire.

Tiberius is the most egregious case, because while I, Claudius (a cited inspiration by Martin) does push a Stannis-esque angle of gloomy man who didn't want to be king (but was good at it), this is also the same guy with a reputation for raping children.

Edit- Like going back to the discussion of Tywin, I think all those guys are (like him) good arguments for the idea that an evil person can be an effective ruler, but I think they are rather counter-intuitive if you want to argue that Stannis is a good guy.

edited 22nd Dec '15 1:37:46 PM by Hodor2

Hmmm, I just re-read that chapter where it gets brought up. It doesn't really say Stannis ordered the burning of the Sept. Although he did burn the Seven and Melisandre specifically calls the Seven an enemy which probably riled some of the queen's men up to burn the sept.

This is after Melisandre says that the Seven are the enemy.

The comparisons make sense because Stannis does kinda look like an evil overlord complete with a kind daughter, a hot sorceress, an enchanted blade and a castle that looks like Minas Morgul.

Like GRRM says unlike them he's righteous which stops him from being another version of Tiberius, Louis XI and Henry VII.

Basically, Stannis is distinguished from them by his actions at least being morally justifiable unlike them.

Just to note this is the dictionary term of righteous:

righteous-(of a person or conduct) morally right or justifiable; virtuous.

Speaking of Stannis. This is a good analysis by Race for the Iron Throne on Stannis and Shireen and Stannis' endgame. And on what grounds, Shireen might burn. I might have linked it here once before.

edited 22nd Dec '15 3:21:23 PM by MadSkillz

So some spoilers for the next season that I just read. Ramsay flays Stannis and Roose on the crosses while he burns them in the middle of a battle with Jon Snow. Also he kills Rickon in the middle of that same battle, massacres the Wildlings and Tormund dies as well.

That all sounds like bullshit.

Its stupid enough that I have no trouble believing they'd do it.

Sounds like 4chan troll "spoilers".

edited 23rd Dec '15 6:16:47 PM by LogoP

It's confirmed that there are two charred bodies are on crosses but there's been a lot of speculation as to who they were. A lot of people thought Rickon was one of them, but then Watchers on the Wall confirmed that wasn't the case.

The idea of Rickon being killed could be true but I think it's a fake spoiler that's been around for a while.

It kind of sounds like that fake spoiler is conflating a couple of things- like Tormund has been theorized as one of the bodies on the crosses and there's also a theory that it might be Stannis and Selysse or Roose and Walda.

Also, I have to ask- Mad Skillz- are you posting these things because you think they are true/believe the source or just posting because you want to stir up hatred against the show?

I ask because as with the thing you posted recently about the giant, you are sharing something that is confirmed to be wrong by Watchers on the Wall and is basically someone's made up "worst case scenario" based on actual known details.

One other thing that I noted with the giant story as well- basically, although the initial Watchers on the Wall posting was coy about this, I heavily get the impression that Ramsay loses the battle but both your "spoiler" for that and this spoiler seem to have missed/ignored that detail.

Tl; dr- I don't "begrudge" you getting info from a source that hates the show (since everyone tends to gravitate toward sources that match their opinion) but I'd kind of like if you would cross check them before posting them here as confirmed details.

edited 24th Dec '15 9:46:58 AM by Hodor2

I got them all from the same source. It's actually a huge leak that came out and has a plot summary of the season. There's s lot more than I just mentioned.

Like Littlefinger winning the battle for Jon against Ramsay and coming out in support of Jon. And Margaery becoming a......septa???

edited 24th Dec '15 10:56:44 AM by MadSkillz

I'm getting a 404 Not Found.

But in any event, it's not so much a leak as (I believe) someone either making stuff up or extrapolating based on actual spoilers posed on Watchers on the Wall.

Edit- I'm not sure how to link to tweets, but like on the twitter of Sue the Fury (the person who sort of "runs" Watchers on the Wall) there's some tweets asking about what I think is your link and Sue confirms that it's not really legit/is made up based on actual spoilers that have been out for a while.

edited 24th Dec '15 11:00:57 AM by Hodor2

Try this one. It's a link to someone else's link. Click on it and it should take you there.

Thanks. It worked.

But yeah, if you go to Sue the Fury's twitter, that same biosnake asks her about it. It's like a combination of spoilers compiled over the past several months by Watchers on the Wall and Los Seize Reinos (spelling?) coupled with someone's own speculation.

Like for example, Natalie Dormer had an interview that suggested that Margaery (presumably) feigning having a religious conversion as part of getting freed from the Sparrows.

Someone saying she becomes a septa is taking that interview as opposed to actual "shocking spoilers" and either extrapolating or making shit up.

edited 24th Dec '15 11:08:49 AM by Hodor2

Good then because some of this was kinda bad.

Although the cgi naval battle sounded cool

Well, I vaguely remember some mention of sea VFX.

I don't want to say that you should like read through months of posts at Watchers on the Wall, but like all of those bullets really do sound like extrapolations based on things posted there.

Like for example, I'm pretty sure that Ian Mc Shane is playing a Meribald equivalent but haven't seen anything indicating that Jaime is seeking support for fighting the Sparrows- although one post did mention Jaime doing something Sparrow-related in Kings Landing, so presumably that's where the person got the idea (they could actually be right about that).

The Danaerys one also sounds reasonably accurate.

As far as Winterfell goes, there's definitely a battle and it sounds like Ramsay survives it (but again, I'd question anything saying he wins it). The stuff with Littlefinger could be true. Some of the Vale characters are supposed to appear.

Tl; dr, because the speculation is based on actual spoilers coupled with the fact that the show follows the books to some extent (including likely correct guesses of stuff that's going to happen), it's going to be right on some things. Like for instance, if you had just read ADWD and were asked what would happen next to Dany, I think you'd probably speculate that she's initial in bad circumstances with the Dothraki who find her and then after Drogon shows up and eats a few people, they follow her.

But again, it's not actually spoilers learned from a secret source as someone taking actual spoilers and extrapolating.

edited 24th Dec '15 11:30:07 AM by Hodor2

Didn't Selyse hang herself last season out of guilt despite treating her daughter like shit for most of her life? Why would she be burned at the cross with Stannis?

She did. But the theory with that would be that Ramsay was claiming responsibility for their deaths as a way of intimidating people.

I think the theorist is kind of merging a Stannis and Selyse theory with a Roose and Walda theory.

edited 24th Dec '15 11:43:01 AM by Hodor2

Check out Bran's new look for season 6.

I like it but now he looks even more like book Jon Snow.

Yeah, that actor grew up a bit too fast for the show.

aslfkhjarwfoiddslzkngabkghoi lajhgeoitw4aklmfjivochiknsawleo'dfivxjfnkgtre

Bran is literally nearly 6 feet tall. Lol.

I took noticed of the marathon on HBO and rewatched most of season 1-4. This show is even better than the first time I binged watched it. Still love Arya and Hound's scenes. By far the best duo I ever seen on television.

edited 29th Dec '15 5:35:36 PM by there_will_be_cake

lol

-cries-