Game of Thrones [Potential Book Spoilers]

I'm making a guess based on the fact that Marge slept with Tommen. And that seems to be pretty significant unless she doesn't really have a future.

And Loras is dying in the books and the only son in the show and soon to be arrested.

Also LMAO.

edited 29th Apr '15 3:05:03 AM by MadSkillz

To be fair, someone told Cersei Loras was dying. Anything Cersei doesn't disbelieve on knee-jerk reflex she swallows hook, line, and sinker.

As far as I remember, Loras isn't confirmed dead in the books and that would be such a waste if he hung around for 3 seasons and then just died doing nothing.

Loras might survive and turn into a Hound-like person.

I doubt that Cersei was lied to about the burns.

Loras is barely a character in the show.

edited 29th Apr '15 12:26:48 PM by MadSkillz

Yeah, we don't actually see Loras get taken out first hand, so count me as unconvinced until I see the body.

And I doubt House Tyrell is going to be killed off on the show. That's definitely what Cercei's trying to do, the next episode makes that very clear, but her plans have a nasty habit of blowing up in her face.

I miss Willas. Willas was a bro.

edited 29th Apr '15 12:35:37 PM by Northwind

Your spoiler is my personal theory- based on a combo of something I read about a character in Martin's Dying of the Light who is basically a composite of Loras and Sandor. And Martin loves his "rematches"- which is why I think Loras might fight Gregor/Robert Strong in the books.

So, I dislike the idea of the show killing him off this season especially if it is in the form of "death for homosexuality".

I don't buy into the theory that Loras is a-ok in the books and that the Tyrells are just manipulating Cersei. I think it's one of those things (similarly to Jeyne Westerling being pregnant and their being a switch) where some fans are imagining foreshadowing of a twist that doesn't exist.

edited 29th Apr '15 12:34:10 PM by Hodor2

We're fans. It's what we do.

Interesting. This guy sounds awesome.

Yeah I'm with Hodor. Sometimes fans overdue it with finding twists. Especially since GRRM confirmed that Jeyne's hips issue thing was a mistake on his part.

A likely story to draw us off the sent of the truth.

In all seriousness, I remember when some people were really pushing that whole 'Roose is the Night King' thing. Not only was it weird, it kind of missed the point of his character in my opinion.

edited 29th Apr '15 1:21:24 PM by Northwind

Then there's also the theory that Roose is a vampire/body snatcher. He routinely takes his son's body.

And that he's planning on switching to Ramsay's body soon.

I like the theory that the last Night's King was named Jon Snow.

So it'd be interesting if this era's Jon Snow was the Warrior of Light/ AA.

On the other hand, if Loras actually dying, that would mean Cersei's plan actually worked. Would that not be a far greater twist?

Well she did end up taking Dragonstone, made the right call to get Jaime to take Riverrun and getting Marge arrested.

Then there's okaying the creation of the perfect, immortal warrior who will probably save her ass.

And she got the Faith to accept Tommen's authority too. As much as we try to downplay her she's actually had some good successes.

edited 29th Apr '15 1:30:39 PM by MadSkillz

It'd also miss the point of Cercei's character. She's an utter incompetent at leading and her plans almost always blow up in her face. Even if she did kill Loras, the backlash would doom her in the long run.

Never heard that one, but it sounds interesting? Got a link?

edited 29th Apr '15 1:32:12 PM by Northwind

Oh, that reminded me. Despite bonding with Brienne, Jaime is still a dick in the books.

He was the one who gave Cersei the idea of sending Loras on a mission. I don't think Jaime had Uriah Gambit in mind- probably just a Kicked Upstairs kind of thing, but yeah, that plan came from Jaime.

@Mad We is a lot of people. :P

Cersei like Ned and like Stannis expect people to keep playing by the normal rules of Westeros. She did eventually get Ned to buy into her plan but Littlefinger threw a wrench into that plan

edited 29th Apr '15 1:34:45 PM by byakugan0889

@Hodor You're confused. Jaime actually had the idea to send Mace to Storm's End so he could stay away from KL.

Loras going to Dragonstone (and hopefully dying) was Cersei's idea.

Jaime wanted Loras to assume command of the KG while he was away which Cersei was entirely opposed to.

It's based on the idea that when Jon Snow introduces himself to Ygritte her immediate reaction is to call it an evil name despite the fact that there is no stigma for bastards in wildling culture.

Or do you mean Roose the body-snatcher idea?

edited 29th Apr '15 1:36:58 PM by MadSkillz

Oops. Will have to reread. That makes sense. Always confuse Dragonstone and Storms End.

Huh, interesting. I always figured it just something to do with Ygritte being Ygritte. And yeah, I meant the 'Night King was named Jon Snow' idea. That's a new one.

And with Book!Loras, it's not like he needed much prodding. The guy is a major hothead and really, really hates Stannis. In all honesty, the writers on the show really dropped the ball by playing down the warrior aspect of his character. It made him far more interesting.

edited 29th Apr '15 1:41:58 PM by Northwind

It makes sense. Old Nan said that he might have been the brother of the King in North kinda like our own Jon Snow.

@Northwind Yeah I wish they had kept in Tommen training with Loras. It would've made it seem more like a team effort to get Tommen under the Tyrell's thumb than just Marge being sexy. Plus Loras would have more screentime to do stuff.

@Hodor Still, Jaime might been being a dick because I feel like he might have been pr said something that made him seem supportive of Mace dying in a siege to Cersei.

I'm still not sure why people hate TV Cersei. She's downright sympathetic compared to her book version.

Like I know I always talk about Saint Tyrion but there's been just as much done to whitewash Cersei as there has been for Tyrion.

edited 29th Apr '15 1:46:44 PM by MadSkillz

For me, I think she's less bad then her book counterpart but still ultimately unsympathetic due to her shortsightedness, pettiness, and narcissistic view of the world. I find both her show and book versions at best deserving of pity due to Westeros social norms, her really fucked up family, and her own personal demons combining to turn her into the person she is, but that doesn't excuse the things she's done.

D&D have tried to make her more sympathetic in the show, but for me at least it hasn't worked.

Loras is hardly a character in the show at the moment, which is why it makes it feel even LESS climactic to killhim off; he survived Renley only to do nothing and die a miserable death.

Book Cersei is as a two-dimensional baby-eating villain.

Show Cersei is a terrible person, but has nuance and the odd Pet the Dog moment (although usually with a Jerk with a Heart of Jerk twist).

I do think they should have had Loras training Tommen though and shown the "Tyrell takeover" on both fronts. However, although I don't like him being made a joke, I'm not really sure how much could be done with his book character- he's basically a prickly Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy and isn't in that many scenes. He has that great line about his love for Renly, but he's not really the most complex of characters and I don't know how one would expand on what exists in the text.

edited 29th Apr '15 2:04:34 PM by Hodor2

I get what they tried to do. They wanted to combine the three Tyrell sons into Loras and connect him more with the goings on in King's Landing. I just don't think it's worked. He doesn't act like Garlen or Willas, or the book version of himself. He's just kind of there, giving Marge someone to exposit to and providing fan service.

Loras has had more scenes in the books than in the show (or at least around as much).

@Hodor I disagree with that statement. Sure Cersei is an awful person but she's not two dimensional. Like for instance she's definitely not a sadist and in fact she tries to justify a lot of her actions and try not to think about what she's done. She's very amoral.

And on a re-read of her chapter, I've realized that she does indeed love her kids(at the very least Tommen) and not just as an extension of herself.

Also I found this a hilarious description of show Cersei:

Carol Lannister: Carol is a relatable, struggling tiger-mom. She lost a baby and sympathizes with Cat Stark about it. But then she also lives her life believing a prophecy that her first baby should have negated. She almost had to poison her son to prevent him from being harmed more. And now…she’s a single mom (her brother/lover is either physically violent with her or enabling murderers) who is broke, lost a child, has a daughter being obviously threatened, and a son being sexually harassed by a much older woman. Poor Carol! We’re not even touching her uncle’s misogyny!

edited 29th Apr '15 2:22:33 PM by MadSkillz

Book!Cersei is multi-dimensional alright. It's just that all of her layers are bad. The next worse than the previous.

TV!Cersei has somes shades of... I wouldn't say white but definitely grey.