Game of Thrones [Potential Book Spoilers]

I root for the White Walkers.

And Euron! Can't forget about him. Not to mention Rorge, Vargo Hoat, Littlefinger e.t.c.

I really don't see how the Ironborn culture is supposed to be a caricature just because it values killing, like many cultures from real life do. The Ironborn have one of the most fleshed out religions in the series, complete with baptism rites, afterlife (that is described in a lot more detail than the afterlives of the two "mainstream" Westerosi religions), legends and priesthood. They have their own succession system (a weird mix between agnatic primogeniture and elective). We're also given several tidbits of how their society is structured with saltwives, iron price versus gold price, the differences between thralls and "regular" slaves and some hints towards the children of saltwives and thralls making up a kind of second class citizenry.

edited 28th Jun '14 6:21:05 PM by Druplesnubb

Whenever I describe the Ironborn to people unfamiliar to the series, I sum it up as "what happens when a bunch of pirates get together and start a country". The only reason I wouldn't say they're "evil" is that the Ice and Fire world isn't on the usual wavelength of white and black; the line zigzags, is three-dimensional, and rainbow colored.

I would say without a doubt that Theon isn't really evil, though. He had one or two unpleasant aspects, but I think he was just put in a really bad position. Killing the two boys was probably the worst thing he did, and Ramsay is partially to blame for that.

How can a culture that looks down on agriculture and commerce and education even function?

edited 28th Jun '14 7:44:29 PM by MabuseTheGambler

THEFT AND MURDER. THEFT AND MURDER ALL THE TIME.

And it's not even that the Ironborn look down on farming so much as it is that their soil and crops are so shitty that it seems pointless. S'kinda like Scotland.

It can't. GRRM never specifies how the Ironborn could even function under the peaceful periods of Targaryen rule.

In the period covered by the book, they don't function according to their ideals (it's mentioned multiple times that plenty of the Ironborn mine and fish and farm, because they lack other ways of earning a living; but they're despised for doing so).

But if you're strong militarily, and the people you're looting are wealthy enough, you could probably do fairly well at least for a limited period of time (until you depleted the amount of loot in the surrounding area) - as in the case of Attila the Hun or Genghis Khan. The Dothraki don't trade and don't have an economy beyond raising horses, and a great Khal can do fairly well simply from robbing and extorting other cities and towns.

edited 28th Jun '14 7:25:44 PM by WarriorEowyn

Balon's backstory says that at 15 (during Targ rule) he went reaving on the Stepstones and took two salt wives. I feel like the Iron Islands were likely second to Skagos in terms of "in name only" rule; they just sent in their taxes, gave a monthly report by raven or something, and everyone called it a day. Any reavings carried out on anything other than the other Kingdoms were probably ignored or even condoned, so in addition to their crappy crops, they could at least sustain themselves.

Remember that they held the Riverlands all the way to Harrenhall pre-Conquest, though. The Greyjoys might not sow, but riverlanders would have.

edited 28th Jun '14 8:17:10 PM by OrKuunArQenByundis

@Logo P It's mentioned that the Ironborn reave and raid the Free Cities during peacetime for Westeros.

I wonder if they've ever tried to raid what lies west of the Sunset Sea (if anything).

They probably still raid the north eastern coasts if Alysane Mormont's words about fearing kraken's from the sea mean anything. I imagine given the ironborn could survive enough off of small coastal villages and the odd hamlet.

But how they could stain all their houses.... I don't know. I suppose they eat a lot of fish and seaweed.

I want to see the Ironborn raiding Skagos.

The Ironborn looking down on Agriculture is a consequence on their home being terrible for farming on. They have nothing against fishing, though, I'm not really sure where you got that. Aemon specifically mentions fish being one of the useful things granted by the Drowned God (unlike the Storm God, who only brings trouble) if I remember correctly. As mentioned, they can also conquer a bunch of mainlanders to farm for them. As for education, you don't see many educated Wildlings or Dothraki around, yet they function just fine.

Edit: Checking through the wiki it seems that the Ironborn actually have several farmers, and the whole "We Do Not Sow" schtick is more of a Greyjoy thing.

• "The ironborn shall be waves ... Not the great and lordly, but the simple folk, tillers of the soil and fishers of the sea. The captains and the kings raised Euron up, but the common folk shall tear him down. I shall go to Great Wyk, to Harlaw, to Orkmont, to Pyke itself. In every town and village shall my words be heard. No godless man may sit the Seastone Chair!" -Aeron Damphair

edited 29th Jun '14 4:38:25 AM by Druplesnubb

Huh. I guess I owe Aeron more credit. Guy cares about the common people.

Does he care about them or is he using them to remove his asshole brother from power?

He certainly seems to have respect for them.

I'm actually curious to see how the life of the common Iron Islands peasant is like. It must be different than that of those in the mainland.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

It smacks a little bit of those politicians who venerate "honest, hard-working people" in their speechifying. Maybe they genuinely respect the working class, maybe in a doublethinky way they think they respect them, and maybe they secretly despise them, it doesn't make much odds. What they're immediately interested in is getting their support, and once they have it it's unlikely anyone's going to remind them to give anything back.

Daznak's Pit will be in season 5

Those sites linked in the bottom of the article seem really cool. If they do end up being Dorne and the pits, they're gonna look great.

So I know I'm a bit late to the party, but I just saw the season finale and wow it was awful. Before it was just an awful adaptation, but now I feel like it's awful just as television in general.

What really struck me the most was the Shae scene, I think. The show only shows us the physical actions of the scene, which are just, guy walks up, strangles woman. That's not actually that impressive. The drama of the scene really revolved around Tyrion's thoughts and narration on the scene, and we don't get any of that, so it just falls flat. (Also they made it all about his manpain and "I'm so sorry I brutally murdered you for no reason" just blarghghggh.)

I think what it comes down to is that, like a lot of books, A Song of Ice and Fire does stuff you can't really do outside of literature. A skilled storyteller and someone well-versed in the strengths of both mediums might be able to pull off a decent translation (even if they'd have to change a lot of things), but these directors clearly aren't. When they aren't changing things for no reason (that Brienne vs. Hound fight was the most contrived thing I've seen in the entire series), they just perform a literal translation, showing the scenes without even trying to work in the internal narration. It strikes me as lazy.

(Also, earlier in the thread I believe someone speculated that they'd somehow manage to make Stannis' arrival at the Wall villainous and yep. To be honest I was kind of hoping for it, just because it'd be such a perfect example of their irrational hatred for Stannis. Guess I got what I wished for; seriously, you can hear villainous music play while the army's marching.)

Edit: And Arya's final scene with Sandor, too. That gave off a completely different tone to me than it did in the books, because all we have is Arya's silent glowering when in the books she was thinking a whole bunch of things that made it a pivotal moment in her character arc. Now they both just look like dicks.

edited 5th Jul '14 3:56:49 AM by FoolsEditAccount

I didn't feel the scene was well done, but you're exaggerating a bit about there being no emotion in it at all. Obviously there was no internal narrative, and dialogue wouldn't have worked, but I thought Peter Dinklage did an admirable job getting across Tyrion's emotions in that situation without speaking a word.

As for it all being about Tyrion... how was that any different in the book? Shae wasn't even awake in the book, let alone sharing her thoughts on the matter.

...No? She was awake, they had a short conversation. But it's more that he wasn't perfect in it. He had a psychotic break and killed someone out of anger and malice. Here he kills her in self-defense and then is all weepy and apologetic, because Tyrion has to be a saint.

And yes, Tyrion's emotions were gotten across, but the more complex motives aren't revealed. If they hadn't cut Tysha they maybe could have worked with that, have him reeling from the revelation like in the books, but, well. It just struck me as a bit weak. (I also felt the Tywin scene was flat, but that's probably just me being a grump.)

edited 5th Jul '14 4:22:58 AM by FoolsEditAccount