North Korea

I doubt that the average peasant cares all that much as they are still starving to death.

@Shichibukai: I guess you're right. I'm always looking out for "Flashpoints" when wars almost always start due to a culmination of events.

I knew that things were Orwellian out there, but the use of actual brinksmanship and not just fabrication for the in-nation media, is...worrying. I guess I underestimated Kim's insanity. If there is a war, we'll all be saying that.

Oh, and the Shanghai metro has telescreens, more or less. I thought that was eerie, but this... I'm not sure what to say.

edited 23rd Nov '10 12:11:35 PM by HungryJoe

What I heard analysts say last night is that for propaganda purposes, the DPRK needs military "victories". All those missile tests, the various sea skirmishes, and this shelling are twisted to show the people the might of the KPA.

I don't think a war on the peninsula is inevitable. It's not in the best interests of everyone involved. NK just wants to do as much damage as they can get away with.

^ Unfortunately, the more it does that and the more lives are harmed/lost over time the more likely they are going to pull something they consider "routine" but ends up spelling the doom of the DPRK.

I watched a wonderful youtube video about hwo some US eye surgeons were allowed in to do some cataract treatment thing. Actually, it was to get a first-hand look as how the country was from the inside.

After they did a mass unbandaging of patient's eyes, it was like watching the Two Minute's Hate, mixed with praise for Big Brother at the same time. Old gray-haired guys (and women, and kids, and pretty much the entire room) giving adoration and praise for Dear Leader restoring their sight and stuff, and how they would kill all the Americans with every fiber of their being. Genuine praise for the party? Or decades of fear?

I'll have to dig up the clip and provide a link.

Ah, here we go, Inside North Korea.

edited 23rd Nov '10 12:29:08 PM by pvtnum11

I read that SK was conducting military exercises and a shell passed over the DMZ and landed in NK territory but caused no damage. This true?

Those exercises were firing southward. The DMZ is northward of the drill area.

^^No, two soliders dead, several civilians injured.

edited 23rd Nov '10 12:28:08 PM by HungryJoe

I've seen that.

If the North had opened its borders and not provoked the west into severe sanctions, those people would not have had to go blind in the first place.

The ball has been in the DPRK's court for pretty much this whole decade, but it is not willing to give away anything except hostages and false promises over its nuclear program.

edited 23rd Nov '10 12:38:18 PM by Shichibukai

Well, If you really want a political reason rather than just plain nationalism. Well, let's put it like this: Every time things go bad, the dictator needs to blame someone, right? Lack of food, insecurity, unstable economics? Why, this is all the fault of Colombia and the USA, who have allied themselves to kill Chavez! (yeah, he actually says that. Every. Single. Day.) and his people BUY IT. Now think about it. Kim's country is going down. He needs to do something. A distraction. He also needs to test his weapons. He is feeling more asshole today than usual. What to do about it? BINGO! Let's start a war or minor scale conflict to blame South Korea! It woulb be perfect, it would reassure the brain washed citizens that the lack of food is because of the war.

On the other hand, just like in cuba, North Koreans think they are living in the best country. Think of it like Western Germany during the cold war.

Man, it is like living in 1984.

Wouldn't surprise me if he keeps a copy on his nightstand. Or if his favorite adviser has a copy he covertly consults frequently.

You actually believe that Kim READS?? how idealistic...

Okay, so it's his favorite bedtime story.

I seem to vaguely remember some public official from the United States meeting with Kim Jong Il and remarking that he was surpisingly rational and intelligent.

It might have been Condoleezza Rice.

edited 23rd Nov '10 1:04:21 PM by Pentadragon

Madeline Albright, I think it was. ^ Could've been Rice also, I'll have to look that up to see who's visited there.

But yes, he is by no means stupid. Incredibly arrogant, but not stupid.

edited 23rd Nov '10 1:06:41 PM by pvtnum11

Yes, I've heard that too.

Kim's a film buff, he's probably seen the movie.

If NK decides to go for open warfare I'm putting my vote in for total destruction. There's no reasoning with their leadership and you can't leave a country like that with nuclear arms and a grudge.

In a better world, Kim Jong Il would have been born as the child of a little-known Korean general and become a film critic.

Japan is demanding the United States retaliate.

edited 23rd Nov '10 1:20:38 PM by Pentadragon

Dubious source.

^ Another Source

Honestly, the only way war is happening is if North Korea initiates it, and unless Kim Jong-Un has ascended to the throne even that is highly unlikely. Both North and South Korea realize that even if their side somehow manages to win the war, the social and economic costs of unification will be astronomical. It is in neither's interest to break the status quo.

Okay, then I have a few questions for Japan and their demand for retalliation:

Dear Japan,

How do you think the North Korean military will react to a US-led attack? What sort of attack would you like us to do, air strikes? Tomahawks cruise missiles? Stealth bomber missions? Any of which will certainly exacerbate the situation and risk igniting a regional conflict?

No thanks. The situation is like sitting on a powder keg, and the North knows it all too well.

How about this alternative, Japan - you perform the actions you think is prudent. You have a highly-trained and capable Defense Force at your disposal, and if you rightly think that acting in an agressive nature is in your best interests, so be it. We more or less let Israel do such things, we can extend the same courtesy to you.

But be aware that such actions will result in consequences and the risk of ingniting a regional conflict that will see millions of casualties, as well as a humanitarian disaster, and, if you haven't fogotten, might earn you the ire of the Peoples Republic of China.

Tread lightly.

Your friend, USA

Is Japan allowed to initiate aggression in a case like this?

ETA: Wiki says "Japan's military is restricted by the Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution, which renounces Japan's right to declare war or use military force as a means of settling international disputes"

Official English translation of Article 9: "ARTICLE 9. Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes. (2) To accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of belligerency of the state will not be recognized."

So the only way they CAN react to something like this is to demand that we do something about it - we've been insisting that they rely on us to protect them since there's not even a self-defence clause there, so in essence, we're their only teeth they can bring to play.

edited 23rd Nov '10 1:28:09 PM by Yamikuronue

Wars are not always started for rational reasons. If NK doesn't change its ways or collapse before things come to a head, at some point I would expect SK to go 'Okay, screw the consequences, let's do this thing.' How many citizens do you need to lose before it's too many to tolerate?

Yami: I don't believe so, no. I was under the impression that their defense force is under some pretty strict rules of engagement, as a side-effect of WWII.

EDIT: Ah, groovy.

I coudl be wrong though. Based off my horrendous spelling alone, much of what I say is to be taken with a grain of salt.

Second EDIT: Maybe it's time to revisit that clause. I think they've laerned the errors of their ways. Or have they, if they're wanting us to swing the stick for them...?

edited 23rd Nov '10 1:30:26 PM by pvtnum11